quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:


Back to my question, are there ways to secure an outswinging door and prevent the threat from gaining access?

Answered a couple of posts above yours.

I've read the posts related to my question and don't see how you think it was already answered?

quote:

Originally posted by Fed161:
I am still waiting for the trans murderer's "manifesto" to be released. I suspect it is not being released because it will say in plain language that the killer's motive was to advance a twisted pro-trans agenda.

They try not release these to avoid giving the murderer the publicity. If you write a manifesto it is becasue you have an agenda, and then commit these crimes to get attention. Giving them that attention then encourages others with an agenda.

Of course, the media will print it if they get it (which is their job), but the authorities try to supress them. You will note they often don't use the person's name, either, which is also an attempt to not shine a spotlight on murderers. Attention is what many of them want.

I know it is more fun to think it is based on the content of the manifesto, but it is manifestos in general.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
I know it is more fun to think it is based on the content of the manifesto...

It's not "fun". This isn't some paranoid fantasy of fringe whackos who see conspiracy in everything. The claim that the reason for the reluctance to release this manifesto is because of its contents, is the unadulterated truth.

I think the MSM would cover the manifesto only if it fits their agenda. If this were a white supremacist the manifesto would be all over the news. But then again that’s just my pessimistic attitude these days. Hoping like he’ll I’m wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:

quote:

Originally posted by Fly-Sig:

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:


Back to my question, are there ways to secure an outswinging door and prevent the threat from gaining access?

Answered a couple of posts above yours.

I've read the posts related to my question and don't see how you think it was already answered?

The video linked show how to put a chair leg through the handle to prevent the handle being turned and to block the door from being opened outward.

Thanks, Fly-Sig. I missed that link. You're right, that does answer my question very well.

Manifestos seem to be common with these shooters. The one stopped in Colorado had one in the works. Anyone that takes the time to document all of that is typically viewed as unstable at best.

My personal opinion is that the details do not need to be published. They are more likely to inspire someone who already has one foot dangling over the edge.

If there are similarities that law enforcement can reduce to key warning signs or things to be wary of or look for in people, then that should be published at some point. Risk of course being if how to find them is published they'll change tactics.

quote:

Originally posted by marksman41:
If the door swings outward from the classroom to the hall, all the threat has to do is pull the handle and he/she has easy access to the classroom by just operating it in the manner in which it was designed. Why would you try to push/kick your way into an area where the only effort needed for ingress is to pull on the door?

Back to my question, are there ways to secure an outswinging door and prevent the threat from gaining access?

In the schools I’ve subbed in and participated in lockdown drills in, the classroom door would be locked. Sorry for the confusion, I shouldn’t have assumed people would understand the lock set would be locked.

quote:

My personal opinion is that the details do not need to be published. They are more likely to inspire someone who already has one foot dangling over the edge.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I beg to differ. The more the public at large knows about these folks the better. Reading the rambling thoughts of a school shooter is not something that would inspire others. The FBI used to have top notch profilers, clinical psychologists with law enforcement experience. Making these findings public would likely have a preventative effect.

quote:

Originally posted by cruiser68:
I think the MSM would cover the manifesto only if it fits their agenda. If this were a white supremacist the manifesto would be all over the news. But then again that’s just my pessimistic attitude these days. Hoping like he’ll I’m wrong.

You are more than likely Not wrong.

https://www.tennessean.com/sto...on-guns/70102868007/

Gov. Bill Lee calls for 'order of protection law' to keep guns away from dangerous individuals

The Republican governor on Tuesday also signed an executive order aimed at strengthening the state's background check system.

Melissa Brown
Nashville Tennessean
updated 1:48PM CT April 11, 2023

Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee on Tuesday signed an executive order aimed at strengthening background checks for firearm purchases, in addition to calling for lawmakers to pass an order of protection law to keep guns away from people who present a danger to themselves or others.

"I’m asking the General Assembly to bring forward an order of protection law," Lee told reporters at a police precinct in Nashville. "A new, strong order of protection law will provide the broader population cover, safety, from those who are a danger to themselves or the population."

“This is our moment to lead and to give the people of Tennessee what they deserve," Lee said.

The executive order sets a 72-hour period for reporting new criminal activity and court mental health information to the Tennessee Instant Check System, the background check system operated by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. The order also directs the TBI to issue a report in two months to Lee's office and the General Assembly on "any barriers to complete, accurate, and timely reporting of information that is accessible in TICS."

“The existing background-check process for purchasing a firearm only works when there is accurate and timely information that's available,” Lee said.

Proposal comes in wake of Covenant shooting

Four days after the Covenant shooting, the deadliest school shooting in state history, Lee told The Tennessean he believes people who are a danger to themselves or to others should not have access to weapons, a position he reiterated a few days later when announcing a slate of school safety measures with Republican legislative leaders.

The school safety package, which focused on hardening school security and did not address gun reform, received bipartisan passage in the House last week. Lee has reiterated he has directly asked General Assembly leadership to bring forward order of protection legislation, though he declined to say Tuesday if he had received pledges of sponsorship from lawmakers.

But Lee's comments on Tuesday were his strongest yet that he believes new legislation can be passed this session, which is expected to wrap up within weeks. Lt. Gov. Randy McNally, R-Oak Ridge, was among the first Republicans openly supporting an extreme risk protection order. While House Speaker Cameron Sexton, R-Crossville, has not openly opposed it, he's expressed skepticism that such an order could contain appropriate due process protections.

But Lee's comments on Tuesday were his strongest yet that he believes new legislation can be passed this session, which is expected to wrap up within weeks. Lt. Gov. Randy McNally, R-Oak Ridge, was among the first Republicans openly supporting an extreme risk protection order. While House Speaker Cameron Sexton, R-Crossville, has not openly opposed it, he's expressed skepticism that such an order could contain appropriate due process protections.

The Democratic legislation includes a proposed ban on bump stock conversion kits and high-capacity magazines, citing the Covenant shooter's ability to fire 152 rounds inside the school in about 15 minutes. Senate Bill 1564 would allow family members and law enforcement to petition a civil court for an extreme risk protection order, which would allow law enforcement to temporarily remove weapons from a person deemed a risk to themselves or others.

"These are smart and effective solutions to keep kids and families safe," Akbari said. "We are ready to work with the governor and the supermajority to get something done."

New gun reform effort launched

Republicans are hesitant to refer to emergency, temporary measures to prevent certain people from accessing firearms as "red flag" laws, though that is what extreme risk protection orders are colloquially known as. Gun rights groups have historically lobbied against red flag laws, and some Tennessee lawmakers in recent days have said they wouldn't support a red flag law.

Voices for a Safer Tennessee, a nonpartisan coalition founded in response to the deadly Covenant shooting, has organized lobbying efforts in recent days asking lawmakers for extreme risk laws, stronger gun storage laws and closing background check loopholes.

"There are so many people who don’t fit within the traditional battle lines on gun issues, and the 'one extreme or the other' approach isn’t serving to protect our children or communities," Voices member Carlie Cruse said Tuesday. "The governor’s address today gives us hope that common ground is achievable this session. We support common sense, meaningful reforms to increase the safety of our families."

Thousands of protesters calling for gun reform have descended on the state Capitol multiple times since the Covenant shooting, at times confronting Republican lawmakers in highly charged moments in statehouse hallways.

House Republicans expelled two Democratic lawmakers on Thursday for breaking House rules on March 30 and leading a protest on the chamber floor for gun reform, echoing the shouts of protesters outside the chamber.

Although backed by some conservatives, the move drew widespread condemnation and national attention. Nashville's Metro Council reappointed one of the lawmakers, Rep. Justin Jones, D-Nashville, on Monday to the seat. The Shelby County Commission on Wednesday is expected to take up the reappointment of the other lawmaker, former Rep. Justin Pearson, D-Memphis.

Though Lee sidestepped questions Tuesday on if he felt expulsion was an appropriate action to take against Jones and Pearson, the youngest Black lawmakers in the General Assembly, Lee said he hopes there's "bipartisan support" to achieve what has been proposed.

"As I said before, when you have something happen as evil, as destructive, as emotionally difficult as what happened two weeks ago, you would expect people to have intense emotional response," Lee said. "That's normal for people. We've all had that. Now is the opportunity that we have to work together."

Reach Melissa Brown at mabrown@tennessean.com.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
They try not release these to avoid giving the murderer the publicity. If you write a manifesto it is becasue you have an agenda, and then commit these crimes to get attention. Giving them that attention then encourages others with an agenda.

quote:

Originally posted by Rightwire:
My personal opinion is that the details do not need to be published. They are more likely to inspire someone who already has one foot dangling over the edge.

No.

The sickness of this mindset that all trans people are victims of a genocide and need to fight for their lives NEEDS OPEN AND FULL PUBLIC SCRUTINY. It needs to be talked about by families around the kitchen table, it needs to be made fun of by comedians, it needs to be shown for what it is - unfiltered, unadulterated, and unedited. It needs to be put in the sunlight of the public view to wither on it's own lack of merits.

The media attention all these shooters crave, they get regardless of whether their "cause" gets made publicly known or not. If you shoot up a school, your face will be on thousands of hours of live television, your name will be known by EVERYONE in western society before the end of the work week, and it's not as if these people even remotely have the same motivations and causes. No, they always get the attention anyway. The difference here between this shooter and all the others is that the same people who spew verbal diarrhea about taking guns every time this happens just happen to be the people all but openly excusing it this time. There's a problem there. Not releasing the full "manifesto" is protecting that kind of thinking. We don't have the media and the elites telling bullied kids they need to arm themselves, but those people are actually telling trannies they should own "assault weapons" when they think nobody else should. That's telling. We need to talk about that, we need to look at that. It needs to be the topic, not the guns.

Let us not draw short of going the full measure out of some misguided sense of trying to stop the next shooter because they already know their name and face are going to get all the attention they could ever want, whatever their reason for actually going ahead with it.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

quote:

My personal opinion is that the details do not need to be published. They are more likely to inspire someone who already has one foot dangling over the edge.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I beg to differ. The more the public at large knows about these folks the better. Reading the rambling thoughts of a school shooter is not something that would inspire others. The FBI used to have top notch profilers, clinical psychologists with law enforcement experience. Making these findings public would likely have a preventative effect.

The opinion of the authorities is the opposite. They think many of these murderers want publicity, either personally or for their crackpot ideas as expressed in some manifesto. Police shrinks and prosecutors believe that denying them that publicity and attention deprives them of a possible motive.

While normal people would be turned off by the ravings of murderous crackpot, normal people don't commit these crimes. It is other crackpots who want their moment in the spotlight and for people to read their crazed manifesto. Seeing some other crazy get that attention shows them one way to get the attention they can't get otherwise.

Sane people might benefit from seeing how crazy the crazy people are. However, those people won't go shoot up a school to get attention for their anti-crazy campaign, because they aren't crazy.

But it encourages the other crazies to grab their fifteen minutes of fame.

Did publishing Ted K's manifesto result in copycat bombers? Frankly, police shrinks know very little about this. They have their hands full dealing with cops and their personal issues.
Forensic psychologists such as Dr. Reid Melloy are the experts here.

https://www.specializedtrainin...Presenter.aspx?ID=15

You might want to attend his seminars. He really knows his stuff.

It's no surprise, I guess. There is nothing genuine about leftists. Phonies and hypocrites. The truth is in another universe for these people.

Former Tennessee state Democratic Rep. Justin Pearson is facing criticism from conservatives for altering his voice and mannerisms while speaking publicly, which was made evident in unearthed footage from an election he took part in nearly a decade ago at Maine's Bowdoin College.

“Ah don’t feel no ways taard….”
-Harpy Clinton

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
In the schools I’ve subbed in and participated in lockdown drills in, the classroom door would be locked. Sorry for the confusion, I shouldn’t have assumed people would understand the lock set would be locked.

You know for a fact that every teacher in every classroom in every elementary school, junior high school, high school and university the nation has a key to lock the door to whatever classroom they are in - even if it's a last minute change? And if the teacher is away from the classroom for any reason while students are still in it?

Just because you and your institution do something one way doesn't mean that everyone and everywhere else does the same, hence my question for the exceptions to your rule and times when it isn't possible to lock the door for any number of reasons.

And, in my recollection, it is (or was when I was in school) rare to have a classroom where the door is able to be locked from the inside - which still seems to be the case according to this article:

https://www.edweek.org/leaders...hy-many-dont/2022/08 -

which is another reason why I asked about measures to secure entrances.

OK, enough with the doors, please, guys.

I'm a bit late to the party, but the very job I took a leave to start is exactly related to this issue. The issue of securing schools and other public buildings from mass shootings.

These days, I'm a Building Inspector. Not a home inspector, but the guy who works for your city or town, and generally inspects new construction projects. A lesser known role is "Periodic Inspections." These are are annual inspections of certain buildings that are of high risk for... mass casualty events.

But what kind? Fire.

Fire has driven most of the code from its beginning until today, and the regulations exist literally because of body count. Today in 2023, a measure of safety has been achieved such that people dismiss the risk of fire. Building owners and often cities and towns are ignorant of their responsibilities and the code.

There is currently "International Code" and a whole lot of parity from state to state regarding construction. But the inspection of occupied buildings is something that is patchwork at best. The folks running the "building department" or ISD of your city or town may not be aware, or not have the resources to do these inspections.

Are mass shootings a threat? Yes. Are they something to plan for? Yes. Are such plans part of building or fire code? No. They might be in the future, but frankly I doubt it.

People must always be able to escape. Regardless of the threat, you cannot stop people from the immediate safe exit of a space.

Deadbolts? I don't care who or where you are, if it's a space with kids, deadbolts are against the law.

If you want to secure a school, or any other space from the threat of mass shootings, you need to work with your building and fire departments, as well as "consultants." Don't guess, don't assume. Your choices may kill people in a fire or other emergency, at the feet of "protecting" them from a mass shooting.

Are there code compliant ways to secure a building? Absolutely. You can indeed keep people out and retain the ability for people to escape. I've been at this for a few years now, and helped institutions do it. The worst offender is public schools. The claim is always funding, this is false. The thing missing from publicly governed spaces is accountability.

Adults can kinda sorta "self rescue" in the event of some kind of emergency. People under 18, while they can affirm their gender, are shittier at said self rescue, and it gets worse as you approach the time when leftists think its OK to murder them.

Speculate all you like about barricading doors and this and that. Why can't they? Because preventing deaths in the event of a fire is law, and mass shootings are not part of any law or code. If you or your school/town/city take measures to prevent the perceived threat of school shootings, at the expense of building and fire code..... God help you when children die.

Who is responsible? The property owner. If that's you, best get your shit together. If that is your city/town, ignore "security consultants" and get with your Fire Chief and Building Commissioner.

What kills people in a fire? Not the fire. How fast does a fire happen, how fast does smoke and gas fill a space? How long can a human survive above 130 degrees? How long does it take for a space to climb to 1000?

Throwing all that out the window to barricade for a shooter, is a terrible mistake.

You have elected officials. Hold them accountable for how public spaces are protected, from all threats. After that, owners of private property are generally more proactive about solving these issues.

Apologies for the long winded nature of this, it's not a simple topic. I'm happy to discuss it, perhaps in a separate thread. The things I've seen in the short time on the job, are striking. On top of that, our "continuing ed" is often comprised of reviewing old tragedies. I routinely work with local FD and PD here, and with state inspectors and the Fire Marshal when needed.

"It's always been this way." "It will cost too much money." "No one told us." "The city approved for years." "We didn't know." I can't list all the excuses, but there are greatest hits.

How do we protect children?

Accountability. Responsibility. Make sure you know who those people are, and insist they do their fucking job.

This seems like a simple concept, but are you aware that you can't schedule your emergencies?

As Outkast once said. "You can plan a pretty picnic, but you can't predict the weather."

Who the fuck is planning your picnic, and do they know what they are doing? If they planned for a school shooting in a manor that traps people..... the court awarded settlement will be cold comfort. It might come out of your pocket.

I'm about done. If you'd like to discuss this further, perhaps a separate thread from this is in order. The outrage of how to meaningfully impact mass shootings, and the very real risks that have history in the code, are actually distinct from each other.

Fire codes have done wonderful things to increase safety.

In my neck of the woods, newer schools are completely made of concrete. Concrete cinder blocks, prefab concrete “building blocks”. Very little combustible materials. Most of the interior furnishings like carpets are self extinguishing (don’t remember the technical term). Basically, a trash can fire (set by a student) or air handler fire will be very limited and are not likely to spread beyond a very small area. I have walked around with fire inspectors and they have reiterated how pointless these annual inspections are because these new buildings are not going to burn.

Yes new school construction definitely takes into account school hardening best practices. In conjunction with fire codes.