quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Yeah TM, we covered that a few times over already. But thanks for addressing it, Again.

So if the Honda's are not cvt and no transfer case with a low range. What do we call them from a mechanical perspective?

Part time AWD.

quote:

Originally posted by tigereye313:

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Yeah TM, we covered that a few times over already. But thanks for addressing it, Again.

So if the Honda's are not cvt and no transfer case with a low range. What do we call them from a mechanical perspective?

Part time AWD.

Slip & Grip, if memory serves correctly.

Not sure if the Pilot/Passport still have the 'low-range' (VTM-4) like the older ones did.

I think it can be locked under 15mph.

That would be a small plus if so. No low range but can lock it into a full time 4wd type mode if operating at at a speed of less than 15 mph?

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
That would be a small plus if so. No low range but can lock it into a full time 4wd type mode if operating at at a speed of less than 15 mph?

I believe that's how the VTM-4 worked on the 1G Pilot/Ridgeline.
Had to in in R or manually put into 1st or 2nd, VTM-4 would not engage/lock in D.

The 4Runner fits everything you are looking for minus the 30mpg. A Highlander can get 29mpg on the freeway. I absolutely love my 2020 4Runner. It's almost unstoppable and comfy for daily driving.

I agree P229, but 26 mpg vs 17 on a 1k mile trip and significantly more comfort is something we are considering. Basically same towing and cargo capacity as well.

When looking at a Pilot or maybe a Highlander.

Even the Mazda CX-9 meets my 3500lb tow capcity and is rated higher than the Assent for a 4 banger

quote:

Originally posted by P250UA5:

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
That would be a small plus if so. No low range but can lock it into a full time 4wd type mode if operating at at a speed of less than 15 mph?

I believe that's how the VTM-4 worked on the 1G Pilot/Ridgeline.
Had to in in R or manually put into 1st or 2nd, VTM-4 would not engage/lock in D.

Sounds right.

old rugged cross: FWIW, Subaru AWD is full-time AWD. We have an Outback, which replaced a Forester. They can drive through sand (that stumped 4wd pickups) like it wasn't even there. Awesome in bad weather also.

Ascent can tow 5k.

I think I would be more inclined to buy an outback vs the assent. For some reason the assent is a bit of an enigma.

2020 Off Road Premium w/KDSS is what I went with. Have had it since late September of ‘19. Sure, acceleration is lacking, but a Sprint Booster solved that, smoothed out pick up and actually saw an increase in MPG.

The KDSS system really makes a huge difference in how it rides and handles.

Is it a dated engine and transmission? Yep, but I also know the reliability of it, too.

A lot of cargo room, great snow/dirt/mud ability and build quality is excellent. My only gripe is lousy headlights...but that was an easy fix.

We’ve gotten 22 hwy several times on trips, so it is capable when you figure out where/how it needs to be driven.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I think I would be more inclined to buy an outback vs the assent. For some reason the assent is a bit of an enigma.

Outback doesn't meet your towing requirement (2400lbs) and I'm actually thinking about trading my Accord for a Ridgeline for that very reason.

I would think an Outback with the 6 cylinder engine could tow more?

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I would think an Outback with the 6 cylinder engine could tow more?

Apparently the new turbo XT can tow 3500lbs.

quote:

I believe that's how the VTM-4 worked on the 1G Pilot/Ridgeline.
Had to in in R or manually put into 1st or 2nd, VTM-4 would not engage/lock in D.

VTM-4 is a last resort, hinky proposition. It will get you out of some snow or deep mud, but it isn't meant for much else. The beach sand trails out here won't let any year Pilot's buy the pass. Our 2007 has gotten itself out of a jam or two, but it isn't a true 4wd system. It stands for Variable Torque Management and sends more power to the rear wheels.

Unfortunately, there aren't many true 4wd vehicles left besides PU trucks. You have the Lexus and Toyota offerings, as well as Jeeps and the British Rovers. Some of the fulsize Ford and GM SUVs as well.

To the OP, I would really think about and be honest with yourself about how much true four wheeling you are going to do and go from there. If you need a more comfortable ride and more power for towing, I would take a long hard look at a used Lexus GX-460. It is basically a 4Runner with a V8 and upgraded driveline components. It is a beast off the pavement, and very well mannered on the road.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
I would think an Outback with the 6 cylinder engine could tow more?

IIRC, the prior gen Outbacks have the same tow rating regardless of engine.

It is going to be hard to not buy a 4Runner. But want to look at some other offerings. Probably the Honda's and maybe the Mazda CX9 and the Toyota Highlander.

The Ascent has a higher towing rating than the Outback, even with the Outback's XT engine option. 5000lb tow rating for the Ascent vs the Outback XT's 3500lb.

The difference is likely a result of suspension, wheelbase, and frame reinforcement. Engine and transmission is only one part of the towing equation.

Consider also, that any vehicle from Subaru puts power down to all 4 wheels at the same time--not in equal amounts, mind you, but it's there. It's different than Honda's and Toyota's AWD system that requires a tire to slip free, a computer to recognize the wheel spin, and some sort of clutch to engage the AWD and redirect power to the other wheels. If your primary purpose is to pull a small boat out of the water on a wet boat ramp, Subaru's AWD will be superior.

It sounds as if your strike against the Outback/Ascent is its CVT--but at the same time, I don't think you have a full understanding of what a CVT is (simply judging from the questions, apologies if I'm misstating). Subaru has been using CVTs in their cars for over 10 years now, with good results--Subaru still gets outstanding marks for reliability, resale, and ownership satisfaction. Often exceeding Honda and Toyota for certain models and in certain years. Subaru's newest CVTs are likely indistinguishable from traditional automatic transmissions by the average person driving.

A CVT is a continuously variable transmission. Instead of being tied down to 5 or 6 (or more) fixed gear ratios, the CVT can continuously change the gear ratios based on driving conditions. The purpose is to 1) ensure an optimum gear ratio for current wheel speed and engine speed, and 2) prevent the loss of momentum while the engine has to throttle back, allow the transmission to shift, and then throttle back on. Older CVTs had a "rubberband" affect--where the car would be cruising at optimum gear ratio for efficiency and would take a moment to change gear ratios to favor acceleration when you stepped on the gas. Traditional automatics gave you a quick "snap" when stepped on the gas, dropping you into the next gear down, whereas a CVT would gear down smoothly--causing the sensation that the throttle and engine where connected by a "rubberband". That's changed now. CVTs are now programmed with "fake" gear ratios where the CVT would intentionally "snap" down to pre-programmed ratios or hold certain gear ratios higher at the top end, that would give better momentary acceleration. For cruising, the CVT would still continuously select the optimum ratio for efficiency, and then would snap down to an aggressive ratio when you dipped into the gas pedal. You still benefit from 1) optimum gear ratio during cruising, and 2) no/less loss of momentum.

Obviously, there are plenty of legitimate reasons not to like a particular car--like the way it looks, brand perception, prestige projection etc., but I don't think you can fault Subaru's driveline decisions (horizontally opposed flat 4 turbocharged boxer engine mated to a CVT putting power down to a symmetrical AWD) in comparison to Honda and Toyota's aging 6 cylinder offerings. Subaru has been engineering turbocharged 4 cylinder engines for a long, long time. Honda has been throwing their engineering on variable valves and cylinder deactivation, and Toyota spent their R&D budget on hybrids.

What you are doing is cross-shopping. Considering different vehicles to fulfill the same role. But it's not the same as comparison shopping, where you are comparing similar vehicles in a segment. The Highlander, Pilot, CX9, Passport and Ascent are similar vehicles that you can comparison shop. All are unibody 5-7 seater crossover utility vehicles with available AWD.

The Outback and 4runner are being cross-shopped. The Outback is a lifted wagon--a Legacy sedan with a hatch and a lift. The 4 runner is a body-on frame SUV with true 4WD. They are entirely different vehicles than the others, but could potentially fulfill the same roles. Similarly, a minivan would be a cross-shopped vehicle, but not at all a fair comparison.

Also, the Subaru isn't like the CVTs of old, that just hum along, or drone at a constant high RPM while accelerating. It has (in the case of the last generation Outback) 7 'simulated' gears, so it gives more of the feel of a traditional automatic.

I did an extended test drive with a 2017 4cyl Outback Limited & was pretty impressed with the power delivery from the 2.5

Thanks Aeteocles, Makes sense on the Sub cvt and I completely agree with your last three paragraphs. Spot on.

The knock on the Ascent is engine noise and lack of on the fly acceleration. It is a fairly big rig and small power plant. Even with technology you need an engine to make capable power to move mass.

Right now based on my research and some of the comments here I,

will probably end up buying a 4Runner.
But if I can find one.
I
want to look at a new 2019 Highlander
Maybe look at the
CX9 Mazda
and
Look at the Ascent
and probably look at a
Passport and Pilot
and
Maybe a Ridgeline, but my wife does not want a pickup

Oustside of that not sure there is anything else to look at?

The Volkswagen Atlas should be on your list to consider as well.

Explorer is also on the same category.

Both do not age as gracefully as their Asian counterparts, both in resale and reliability.

The Acura MDX is a pretty solid value, despite being a 'luxury' marque.