I would die of embarrassment.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by coloradohunter44:
No excuse for this. Glad everyone survived. A fellow pilot I’ve know for years didn’t survive this flight a few days back up at FNL in a Duke.

Any idea what happened? Just from the picture, it looks the the plane is fully involved in a massive fire, perhaps while on an approach through IMC? Horrible position to be in. Condolences on the loss of you friend.

It was a short ferry flight from BJC to FNL. He reported an emergency in the pattern and never made the runway. I haven't heard any other official news yet. A sad day for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:


This is really easy to understand. Whatever the pilot was thinking about, fuel management wasn’t part of it. It may be that he is a pilot much less experienced than you and had all of what he could manage without considering fuel (not to mention not having the habit of monitoring fuel status and knowing where the trend was going totally ingrained as you probably do). Or it may be that he is someone who is very experienced and just got complacent. In any case, he clearly blew it bigtime.

It is a mistake, perhaps an unforgivable one, certainly a very embarrassing one, but a mistake none the less. As a species, we humans seem to be pretty good at making those.

Here’s hoping we all avoid that mistake!

It really isn't easy to understand. This is something stressed from before the first ten seconds of one's initial training, as part of the preflight, and is reinforced every moment of every flight. Fuel is planned, monitored and frequently checked and rechecked.

Fuel use is part of every checkride, every flight review, every preflight planning, and enroute operation; it's part of the consideration for diverting to other locations, weather, etc. It's not at all like jumping in a car, where many people mindlessly simply go. Fuel is a part of the weight and balance calculations, takeoff distance calculations associated with the weight and balance; it's critical. There is no excuse whatsoever for running out of fuel.

I landed late one night in Mosul after a 6 hour mission. Typically we were required to ensure the aircraft was fueled prior to leaving the flight line, but this evening the DFAC (dining facility) was closing for midnight chow, and no one action was scheduled after us, so we decided to hot foot it to chow and fuel when we returned.

When we got back to the flight line, the airplane was gone. That made no sense, so we headed to the operations shack, and a voice in the dark said "you guys are in a lot of trouble." I found the aircraft in the dark. The voice told us the airplane had been taken for a flight and came back out of fuel. Go see xxx in the ops room.

I met with xxx, who had elected to take the aircraft to Tal Afar, where he intended to present a flag and a plaque to a unit commander. I was grilled for leaving the aircraft unfueled, and I was told it nearly cost xxx and his operator their life. They departed, discovered a low fuel state and attempted to use tip tank fuel, which I'd already burned on my mission. With no other options, they made it back, but just barely. When I visually checked the fuel cells, I couldn't see fuel. It was my fault, I was told, for not fueling.

What kind of idiot departs at without being certain of his fuel state?

Another individual relayed to me a dual-engine failure at night over Kirkuk; what could only be fuel starvation. I was told it was a mechanic's fault; the mechanic "misrouted the fuel." What it turned out to be, however, was that maintenance had set fuel selectors to one tank as a trouble shooting procedure, and the pilot never reset it as part of the checklist. In fact, the pilot didn't use a checklist. He tried to pawn it off on maintenance.

There's no excuse.

After 400+ hours in my Piper Warrior (Cherokee), what I don't understand is he has two fuel tanks. In order to run out completely, somewhere along his flight path he must have run one tank dry. That should have given him a clue to pay attention to fuel prior to running the second one dry.

Cherokee fuel is in the wings, 25 gal each side, that's around 160 lbs. hanging out there. On a long flight you typically switch tanks a few times to keep everything nicely trimmed. As someone else said, fuel should be of major concern at all times. There are airports all over the place and along his route. No excuse for running out of fuel.

It's really hard to run out of fuel if one doesn't burn off the bottom half. Why some accept low fuel or minimums to begin with is always a head scratcher.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
It's really hard to run out of fuel if one doesn't burn off the bottom half. Why some accept low fuel or minimums to begin with is always a head scratcher.

I believe the majority of people who run out of fuel & crash have done it before - landed with fuel low lights regularly or come close to running out several or many times before (whether they know it or not is another thing).

Back to just stoooopid people, pretending to be competent Aviators.

I think you're right; warning bells should be screaming in someone's head when they're pushing fuel reserves, and if not, it's almost certainly that the individual has done it enough to be callous to the act.

I'm a fuel coward; a genuine fuel wimp. Few things up my pucker factor more than low fuel.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
What kind of idiot departs at without being certain of his fuel state?

A complacent idiot, for that I have no doubt.

To jump in a plane without checking the fuel is ABSOLUTELY foreign to me. First step on the light shit boxes we fly is to push up / down on the wing. It feels very different when full, partially fueled, and bone dry - you can hear it sloshing around (or not sloshing around). Even then you always visually check. It takes a couple of minutes, tops. My life is worth 5 minutes to look at and smell some sweet avgas or jet fuel.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
I'm a fuel coward; a genuine fuel wimp. Few things up my pucker factor more than low fuel.

Nothing cowardly about that, but I'm a wimp with you. Because without fuel, the whole aviating thing tends to stop rather abruptly, in an unpleasant manner.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

I believe the majority of people who run out of fuel & crash have done it before

We could generalize your comment, and turn it into an interesting question. I wonder what the statistics show about accidents / incidents caused by "repeat offenders," not only for fuel mismanagement, but for all types of pilot-induced problems.

I have no doubt that if there was a way to accurately track everything a pilot did, those who had major accidents would be 'repeat offenders' a large majority of the time. Not all the time - mechanical failures happen, one time really bad judgements too, or the perfect storm of events, etc. But more often than not, mishap pilots have done / gotten away with a similar stunt before. Likely many times in the case of fuel (IMO).

The Navy had different categories for pilot and when they are most prone to accidents. Obviously the training / flight time hours vary, but it narrowed down to the pilots who are no longer new to flying, or the older, experienced hands, but those who have been flying for several years and have a good bit of experience (but not quite a lot of it).

In the Tactical world it equated to those with 500-800 hours of flight time / 2-3 years of operational flying. But that was simply the 'danger zone', because plenty of pilots had issues after that - many that I know about were 'that guy' who did stupid shit all the time but never got caught / hammered / etc until they finally did something they couldn't fly or talk their way out of.

My wife's ex-husband ran out of fuel over Alabama and landed on the interstate several years ago.

Just one of many examples of why he's a complete and utter dumbass.

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Originally posted by RogueJSK:
My wife's ex-husband ran out of fuel over Alabama and landed on the interstate several years ago.

Just one of many examples of why he's a complete and utter dumbass.

Any pilot who runs out of fuel should get a big F branded on their forehead, so everywhere they go people can ask about it and laugh at them.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

The Navy had different categories for pilot and when they are most prone to accidents. Obviously the training / flight time hours vary, but it narrowed down to the pilots who are no longer new to flying, or the older, experienced hands, but those who have been flying for several years and have a good bit of experience (but not quite a lot of it).

In the Tactical world it equated to those with 500-800 hours of flight time / 2-3 years of operational flying. But that was simply the 'danger zone', because plenty of pilots had issues after that - many that I know about were 'that guy' who did stupid shit all the time but never got caught / hammered / etc until they finally did something they couldn't fly or talk their way out of.

I've observed several benchmarks when pilots seem to get stupid. Being between them is no immunity, but it does seem that at 500 hours, 1,000 hours, 5,000 hours, and again at 10,000 hours, some pilots tend to get just comfortable enough to relax their guard, become overconfident, or display other hazardous traits.

I'm aware of a fairly recent captain who was downgraded to a first officer, both for his treatment of others (and disregard), and for his actions. The straw that broke his back was his decision to film an approach with his cell phone, while he was flying. He dropped the phone on the floor, where it slid down past the rudder pedals. While flying the approach, he attempted to retrieve it. A jumpseater was on board and reported him.

His abuse level of those around him was legendary, from first-officer/copilots to other crew to tug drivers. Once when a crewmember sat in the jumpseat behind him, the crew, who was not a pilot, noticed several open circuit breakers. He did as he should, and brought it to the captain's attention.

"Are you a fucking mechanic? Are you a pilot? I don't think so. Shut your mouth and mind your fucking business." That kind of attitude, a disregard of basic safety protocol, is what leads to mishaps and fatalities, whether from fuel exhaustion, or any other cause.

The pilot with whom I discussed the dual-engine failure in Kirkuk, incidentally, was highly placed, and his response was to downplay the event because he felt that the aircraft wasn't very complex. "Who uses a checklist?" was his comment to me. That individual was a graduate of the US Navy Test Pilot School at pax river, where he worked for some time, and of all people, knew better. The end result...a deadstick engine with two flamed out. It was a successful, but very unnecessary outcome, and as it turned out, there was fuel on board, but not not accessible with his fuel configuration.

Mind boggling.

In my work, for all but the simplest jobs - or if the car is unsafe to drive, e.g., no brakes - I need to give them a 1-2 mile road test, sometimes more. I can't tell you how many I get with so little gas that I'm afraid they won't even get that far. At least this isn't hazardous.

quote:

Originally posted by RHINOWSO:

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
It's really hard to run out of fuel if one doesn't burn off the bottom half. Why some accept low fuel or minimums to begin with is always a head scratcher.

I believe the majority of people who run out of fuel & crash have done it before - landed with fuel low lights regularly or come close to running out several or many times before (whether they know it or not is another thing).

Back to just stoooopid people, pretending to be competent Aviators.

I move a lot of new yachts for a Yacht manufacturer. A lot of times I only move them for 100-200 yards. From one slip to another in the same marina or 100 yards across to the haul out, for the vessel to be hauled out. Some people are just idiots. I recently moved a $4 million 60' MY that holds 1200 gallons of fuel, which is 14 hours at cruise speed of 24 knots if you were able to use all of it (which you aren't as the last 10% is unusuable, 12 hours with a safe margin or 288 NM's. Anyways, I fired the motors up, and the fuel gauge didn't even more off of the E mark.....not even a touch, it was pegged on E. Some people are unbelievable idiots. This same person traded up from a 28' bow rider to this motor yacht and with 3 days of instruction and really no navigational knowledge before that, ran the boat 1000 NM's across the gulfstream and all through the Bahamas for 30 days with his wife and young kids. This isn't the first person I've come across like this either. SO yes, these people are out there.

I had a Turbo Commander (twin turboprop airplane) to work on a few years ago. The owner had taken it on a charter run that morning in the early hours, when his regular pilot didn't show up. I had to do some engine runs, and when I enquired about the fuel, the owner said "you might have to add some fuel to do the engine run-up."

When asked if he'd landed with insufficient fuel to run the engine on the ground, he said "you'll laugh when you see it."

I didn't laugh. He was completely out of fuel. At night. Light twin. Rough terrain. Instrument conditions.

I asked why he didn't take fuel at the departure point, he said he didn't want to pay their prices.

Seems to me that fuel is the cost of doing business.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
It really isn't easy to understand.

It is INCREDIBLY EASY to understand. The pilot screwed up, just like in your two examples.

quote:

There's no excuse.

This I agree with. An unforgivable mistake is not a million miles away from an inexcusable mistake.

That doesn’t mean it can’t be understood. Understanding why things happen can be helpful in preventing their reoccurrence. Understanding why something happened is not excusing the fact that it happening.

"I never use more than X fuel on this route, I will be fine..."

The two most useless things in aviation--the runway behind you and the fuel you left in the fuel truck.

I bet he put fuel in only one tank and ran it out.

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Originally posted by Herkdriver:
"I never use more than X fuel on this route, I will be fine..."

The two most useless things in aviation--the runway behind you and the fuel you left in the fuel truck.

You left out the third, the altitude above you.