Thoughts on the auto start-stop engines?

May 06, 2018, 11:21 AM

Black92LX

quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
There is no way to disable these things permanently? They default to "on" every time you start it? Sounds like an aftermarket tuner needs to come up with a reflash.

Depends on the vehicle.
Most Fords can be reprogrammed using ForScan for it to be deactivated, so vehicles have a piggy back plug and play device to be added.

May 06, 2018, 12:10 PM

PowerSurge

quote:
Originally posted by 911Boss:
Wow, it seems some people just don’t have enough real problems to worry about...

We have a 2015 F150 with the 2.7L twin-turbo and the auto stop/start feature. To hear the folks in this thread talk (about something most have no history or experience with) it should have been reduced to scrap by now with failed starter, stripped flywheel, blown turbo, and shot alternator...

Instead, it has over 45,000 trouble free miles and has averaged over 19mpg for those 45k. Other than oil and filter changes, it has had exactly one repair issue, an oil pressure sensor that started to leak. That was fixed under warranty.

The restart is instant as soon as the slightest pressure comes off the brake pedal. Never stuttered, stalled, or delayed taking off from a stop.

In those cases where the stop/start would be an issue (ac need or heavy stop/go traffic) there is a very conspicuous button on the dash and disabling the system is as complicated as reaching out and pushing said button. Anyone bothering with it via ForScan programming or bypassing it via wiring must have a lot of free time that needs filling.

At 55 years old, between my wife and I, we’ve have had about 25 cars going back to when we got licensed to drive. In all those cars, and well over a million miles, I’ve had just ONE starter fail.

Y’all worry like a bunch a long tailed cats on a porch full of rocking chairs..

You really need to watch the video I posted.

May 06, 2018, 12:42 PM

911Boss

quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:

You really need to watch the video I posted.

I think I’ll go with the Ford engineering team over Jethro in his home garage...

With very rare exception, every new car I have had has been more reliable and had fewer maintenance concerns than the previous ones as well as offering new features and options. 7500 mile oil change intervals, 100,000 mile tune up intervals, 60,000 mile brakes, better mileage, etc. Things really can improve and be more reliable even while becoming more complex.

By the logic being presented in this thread (anything added lessens reliability/increase points of failure) we should all just be riding horses, or maybe just walking.

Instead of Jethro’s “this is different than that, so it won’t work” reasoning I found the videos I watched about Ford’s R&D and testing on the new F150 and the eco boost engine as well as things like it finishing the Baja 1000 more convincing that things will be ok.

In the end I may be wrong but then I am not someone who keeps a car for 300K-400K miles, I keep it about 7-8 years tops. At that point, it is no longer my concern.

May 06, 2018, 12:47 PM

Choices. We all have choices. That’s one of the things that make this country great.

I choose not to deal with start/stop engines. Can’t see what’s so good about them.

May 06, 2018, 03:07 PM

Fusternc

I despise them. My Jeep has it and its my standard start up process to immediately deactivate it. I have to do this every time I start it as it will not save as a preference.

May 06, 2018, 03:20 PM

Some Shot

Our '17 Pacifica is our first vehicle with ESS. I did not even notice what it was doing during the test drive until the salesman pointed it out. It is that unobtrusive.

This van gets incredibly better gas mileage than any other van we've ever had (and even better than my much smaller and lighter car).

I do "push the button" when pulling into the garage, or it may shut off and restart while I'm shutting the van off. (Oh NO!!!)

May 06, 2018, 03:27 PM

Black92LX

quote:
By the logic being presented in this thread (anything added lessens reliability/increase points of failure) we should all just be riding horses, or maybe just walking.

I think most folks dislike them for their clunkiness and the issues with the A/C not continuing to run.

quote:
Originally posted by Fusternc:
I despise them. My Jeep has it and its my standard start up process to immediately deactivate it. I have to do this every time I start it as it will not save as a preference.

Not sure your Jeep model but I found this video. Not sure if it is this simple on every model or not.
https://youtu.be/hSdvUh5ygdY

A bunch of videos out there for different Jeep models. Google yours and you will likely find a way.

May 06, 2018, 03:27 PM

bigdeal

quote:
Originally posted by 911Boss:
quote:
Originally posted by PowerSurge:

You really need to watch the video I posted.

I think I’ll go with the Ford engineering team over Jethro in his home garage...

Hmmm, let's see. Ford engineers designed the 5.4L engine with the two piece spark plugs that couldn't be removed without breaking them and/or potentially damaging the head. Ford engineers designed the rear suspension on my 2001 F150 where getting to the upper left rear shock mount is all but impossible. Ford engineers designed the chassis on my 2001 F150 such that it requires the motor to be partially lifted out of the engine bay (with everything that goes along with it) to simply remove the oil pan. Honda engineers designed the motor placement in my wife's 2013 Pilot such that getting to the oil filler neck to refill with oil is ridiculously difficult bordering on stupid. Hell, back when I was a kid, some engineer designed the Ford Pinto, a vehicle factory equipped to provide its own light show.

I could go on, but I think you've already gotten my point. The engineers who design new vehicles are not exceptional on any level. They get tons of common sense items wrong. Who knows if this start/stop feature will prove to be a positive or negative in the long run, but from an end user, common sense point of view, I see it as no more than a gimmick.

May 06, 2018, 07:53 PM

sigspecops

It's a well known fact that automotive engineers are employed by Satan to ensure that all who own an automobile are cursed with misery and frustration. Even the most devout and pious among us can't resist swearing when faced with an under the hood repair.

May 06, 2018, 08:16 PM

jimmy123x

I rode in a new at the time 2017 F 150 with the smaller motor. 2.7L I think. It was annoying everytime it shutoff at a light and then turned on. The a/c also didn't stay as cold.

May 06, 2018, 10:39 PM

Prefontaine

You can turn it off. Just tap the button to disable when you start the vehicle.

May 07, 2018, 02:05 AM

Nuclear

I had a BMW loaner with this tech. It shuddered and felt like the engine died at every stop, then spun up roughly. You had to push and hold a button at startup to disable it. Designed by the same geniuses that make you remove the engine cross support to change the oil pan gasket, and remove the fuel injection rail to replace a valve cover gasket. As for the great fuel mileage on F-150s with this feature, I get better fuel mileage on my F-150 without it. Not by a lot, about 0.5 mpg, but still better.

May 07, 2018, 02:30 AM

PowerSurge

quote:
Originally posted by Rinehart:
Starters, solenoids, flywheel teeth and turbos.

I'm sure there's someone on the forum that can calculate MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures)...

As soon as I saw these liberal dream devices (auto start/stop engines) one aspect became clear- Imagine you are driving a typical car or truck. You start that vehicle once for each driving session for each segment under normal conditions. Depending on the horsepower or electronic complexity of the vehicle, a starter might last 75k miles or greater. No one has any real consumer data yet but a vehicle in city traffic could conceivably stop/start/stop a 50+ times during one day.

While some starters are less than a hundred dollars. Most are more expensive. Also consider flywheel ring teeth. They generally wear at a rate consistent with starting sequences.
Even if you use those magic foo-foo-dust integrated-starter-alternator devices they are developing/proposing the wear is hundreds of times greater than a normal vehicle. Changing a flywheel is not cheap.

This is not even addressing heat build up and wear in non-commercial turbo vehicles. *When you turn off an engine the turbo spins down with no pressurized lubrication. That space of time between engine "ON" running (oil pressure) and engine "OFF" is the highest friction sequence time for a turbo as well as other parts.
No cooling system flow when the engine is off- either, which means you may also have decreased oil lubrication properties loss without this being reflected by mileage.

Imagine vehicles that spend a lot of time in traffic, particularly in hot states.

So what happens to your AC when the engine is off?

And with that, you really need to research all the problems Ford has with their engines. Including the ecoboost.

May 07, 2018, 05:51 AM

MikeinNC

My buddy has a BMW with this stuff-it sucks

My FIL has a Honda Pilot, it has the stupid stuff-it sucks

I will never own a car with this crap

May 07, 2018, 06:39 AM

Dusty78

Bmw will stay off u til you reactivate it. Mine has been off since day once...haven’t messed with the button since.

May 07, 2018, 07:07 AM

soggy_spinout

Between systems like stop-start, myriad electronic do-dads and ghastly depreciation, it's why I'll never buy a new(ish) vehicle again. I'm quite content with my older crates and buggies, thank you very much. I don't need or want connectivity and remotely hackable systems in my vehicles; no 'new car smell' is worth any of that nonsense. Besides, I like cars that I can actually work on without need of an EE or computer science degree.

May 07, 2018, 08:02 AM

Georgeair

quote:
Originally posted by Dusty78:
Bmw will stay off u til you reactivate it. Mine has been off since day once...haven’t messed with the button since.

Fortunately this seems to be a trend/standard with German cars. Unfortunately most others either require each-startup selection or, even worse in a couple rentals I've been in, unable to disable at all.

I'd love to see the stats on exactly how much this is going to improve my mileage in normal usage. I get that for fleet averages it may help some fraction when they are chasing every little bit.

And if the starter components are just that much more robust then great - I'll never have to replace them since I've disabled.....

May 07, 2018, 09:09 AM

Skins2881

Was listening to radio this morning, they had commercial listed ASS (probably a better abbreviation available) as a feature. Not sure why anyone would voluntarily put it on a car?

May 07, 2018, 09:20 AM

nasig

First experience with this was on a rental. Hated it and thought it was one of the dumbest ideas ever. As long an there is any other option at all, I will never have one of these.

May 07, 2018, 11:57 AM

08 Cayenne

I have it on a 2018 Porsche, they did a good job with it, very seamless. Mine defaults off, you have to turn it on to use it. I've run several tanks of gas having it on and off, I see no difference in mileage, too many other variables come into play with a 600 mile range on one tank. I don't mind it but don't use it either. I'm not an expert on this type of stuff but I worry about the wear and tear on starter, turbos and such.