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Originally posted by TigerDore:

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Originally posted by bendable:

Good point, and he is a huge contributor, but I would go back even a little further.

Yep, but America lost her soul in 1973.

The USA lost its collective mind when they passed the 17th amendment! When the selection of senators changed of state appointed senators to the state governments, and instead made it a method to send more "representatives" to DC, only with longer terms.

The original intent was that the senators looked out for, and protected STATES' RIGHT!

What we have now is a group who is more interested in protecting their lobbyist friends and contributors than protecting the people who sent them there.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
I don't think it was as far back as Wilson. Don't forget that Wilson was followed by Warren Harding and Calvin Coolidge. My study convinces me that Coolidge was the last President to preside over a federal government that would be recognizable by the founders. Hoover, too, I suppose.

I'm not sure there is one identifiable moment, one event that one can point to. These things seem to ebb and flow, like tides, irregularly, without pattern. To me, the tipping point seems to be in the early '60's. The people who are younger than me tend to be different in manners, outlook, etc. than those older.

Yes, as you point out, it hasn't been a straight line. Calvin Coolidge put us back on course following the early progressives. Reagan put us back on course for a decade following the disastrous LBJ, Nixon, and Jimmy Carter. Reagan helped bring reform to the tax code but not even he could close down the Department of Education, though he wanted to. Since Wilson we have trended toward centralization of power and control in Washington, though not in a straight line.

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Originally posted by Elk Hunter:
The USA lost its collective mind when they passed the 17th amendment! When the selection of senators changed of state appointed senators to the state governments, and instead made it a method to send more "representatives" to DC, only with longer terms.

The original intent was that the senators looked out for, and protected STATES' RIGHT!

What we have now is a group who is more interested in protecting their lobbyist friends and contributors than protecting the people who sent them there.

You do understand that there are two Senators for each state, not based on population like the House, each elected by the entire state. This differentiates them from House members, only with longer terms.

All the 17th Amendment did was change who gets the bribes.

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Originally posted by bendable:

Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding! We have a winner.

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Originally posted by chellim1:
. . .and that Donald Trump won the popular vote in 2016. . .

Well hell. If you subtract the vote fraud (illegal aliens voting; dead people voting; live GDCs voting two, three, four, or more times; GDC's mailing in multiple absentee ballots on behalf of incompetent people; et al), then Trump DID win the popular vote.

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Originally posted by SapperSteel:

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Originally posted by chellim1:
. . .and that Donald Trump won the popular vote in 2016. . .

Well hell. If you subtract the vote fraud (illegal aliens voting; dead people voting; live GDCs voting two, three, four, or more times; GDC's mailing in multiple absentee ballots on behalf of incompetent people; et al), then Trump DID win the popular vote.

That was my first thought. My second was, "Who cares. The president is not decided by the popular vote, the victor is decided by the electoral vote. Seems lately that every time the LibTurds don't like the result they whine about everything they can think of, including the process. All I hate to say to that is STFU and get out of the way. The adults are in charge now."

Recently, the Brookings Institute (liberal think tank) confirmed what we've known all along regarding poverty and societal structures.

Get a high school education at t minimum
Get a job.
Get married........
THEN have children.

The 60's turned that formula on it's head and we've suffered horrible consequences since. Minority populations enslaved by poverty and gov't assistance in the name of charity. Minorities has significantly lower poverty rates and higher employment rates predating the 1960s. Once the gov't incentivized the destruction of the traditional family/employment structure, that's when America lost its mind.

SHTF during the 60's. Johnson was the worst from the left and Nixon was the worst from the right. Americans lost faith in their institutions. The American dream began its slow decline.

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You do understand that there are two Senators for each state, not based on population like the House, each elected by the entire state. This differentiates them from House members, only with longer terms.

Yeah, I am pretty sure that I recall from somewhere about each state having 2 senators.

Maybe it was that graduate course in US history, or some of those high school and college courses.

And what does your comment have to do with the point I was making?

Wilson, with out a doubt in my mind. The creation of the FED allowed the federal government to grow in size and power beyond comprehension to most alive at the time. With out the FED, there likely would have been no U.S. intervention in WWI and as a result, no WWII. It would be a very different world.

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Originally posted by Leemur:
I'd say it started with Wilson, got worse with FDR and went off the freakin rails when the hippies infiltrated federal government.

FTW!

GDC's took up the mantle and corrupted our schools in the late 50's to complete the transaction.

Only problem was, not everyone got indoctrinated, so those of us who were inoculated against the mental infection were able to inoculate others.

Goes against their plans.

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The creation of the FED allowed the federal government to grow in size and power beyond comprehension to most alive at the time. With out the FED, there likely would have been no U.S. intervention in WWI and as a result, no WWII. It would be a very different world.

It's a good point.
Most people have no idea how destructive the FED has been to our currency and how it has become a globalist organization, coordinated and helping fund the ECB and other central banks of the world. Inflation is a hidden tax, imposed by the FED.

I think that for a lot of people, America changed when 3 shots were fired in Dallas in November 1963.

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Originally posted by Elk Hunter:


And what does your comment have to do with the point I was making?

You are mistaken. Other than that, no problem.

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instead made it a method to send more "representatives" to DC, only with longer terms.

There is a difference, as I pointed out. Instead of being elected by district and population, each Senator runs state wide, and not at the same time as Congressmen do.

Now, whether it is better or worse than having the Legislature select them, we can't say, but they are not just better dressed longer term Congressmen.

Over and over, we are taught, "trust the people." I can't think of any other context in which a legislator is not direct elected by the people. Maybe you can point out some concrete benefits to the old way.

As I said, the only practical difference it makes is who gets the bribes.

This seems to be one of those nutty ideas, like term limits, which catches some attention, touted as the answer to all our problems.

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
Now, whether it is better or worse than having the Legislature select them, we can't say,

I can.

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Maybe you can point out some concrete benefits to the old way.

I can absolutely guarantee you that Max Baucus would not have spent 30+ years in the Senate were it not for the 17th Amendment, and thus we may not have had Hadjicare to deal with.

And "trust the people"? Really? How's that worked out? Why do you suppose the founders set it up the way they did?

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As I said, the only practical difference it makes is who gets the bribes.

This seems to be one of those nutty ideas, like term limits, which catches some attention, touted as the answer to all our problems.

Theoretically, Senators were intended to be representatives of the several States, rather than direct representatives of the people, as House members. All States being equal, each received two representatives. The idea was that the several States would retain some, all be it limited, power over the federal government. A nutty idea. I'm going with "No"!

I won't argue that there weren't bribes involved in their selection by the States, but I wouldn't call it a nutty idea. No, repealing the 17th amendment, or the 16th, wouldn't be an "answer to all our problems."... but they would be helpful, IMO.

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Originally posted by Gustofer:

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
Now, whether it is better or worse than having the Legislature select them, we can't say,

I can.

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Maybe you can point out some concrete benefits to the old way.

I can absolutely guarantee you that Max Baucus would not have spent 30+ years in the Senate were it not for the 17th Amendment, and thus we may not have had Hadjicare to deal with.

And "trust the people"? Really? How's that worked out? Why do you suppose the founders set it up the way they did?

Be serious.

I suppose we could promote a Constitutional Amendment to have all legislators, state and federal, selected by the top ten karma holders on Sigforum.

That would do away with voter fraud and these long nights of election returns.

If Baucus was so awful, how come his constituents didn't vote for somebody else?

IOW, if voting by the people doesn't result in your guy winning, then we need to change the rules. Sounds like Hillary!

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Originally posted by JALLEN:
Be serious.

I'm dead serious.

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If Baucus was so awful, how come his constituents didn't vote for somebody else?

Same reason Ted Kennedy spent his entire adult life in the Senate. Same reason John McCain has been there 30+ years. Same reason.... Shall I go on?

Incumbent Senators get beaten when hell freezes over.

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IOW, if voting by the people doesn't result in your guy winning, then we need to change the rules. Sounds like Hillary!

We didn't change the rules. They did!

All we want to do is put them back the way they were intended.

Just like in Russia and China, the seeds were planted very early, they just took a lot longer to bloom here.