If Roe V Wade and abortion become midterm issues it will reinvigorate the leftoids.

December 03, 2021, 10:20 PM

bald1

This is the first time I looked into this thread and found I was absolutely appalled at what 46and2 posted.

No point in even starting to outline all the things constitutionally, morally, and ethically wrong with Roe V Wade as it would be lost on someone whose emotions are so out of control.

Truly sad.....

December 03, 2021, 10:56 PM

darthfuster

I have a brother. He's 7 years younger than I am. He calls himself a conservative but I don't think that word means what he thinks it means. Anyway, I govern my political perspectives based on what I define as true principles. One of those principles is that we don't kill the innocent for profit nor convenience in the womb nor out. Period. He disagrees.

As is his M/O, whenever we discuss a topic upon which we disagree and I start with the principle and work Socratically toward the end of the argument, he begins to get emotional, aggressive and pulls some emotive moral supremacy card out of his butt crack. He has to. He can't argue the principle. His only option is to derail the conversation with insults, condescension and dismissals. Now, he's not as vulgar as 46and2, but it's the same technique. My brother and I don't talk anymore.

December 04, 2021, 09:36 AM

NavyGuy

quote:
I know lots of folks moving to Texas to help flip it

Hmm, while I'm sure there those who have moved to Texas and are Dems, I have a hard time believing there are droves of people, pulling up stakes in other states and moving to Texas for the sole purpose of casting their one vote the "flip" the state. Fare easier to just continue to game the voting system.

December 04, 2021, 09:42 AM

chellim1

quote:
Originally posted by darthfuster:
I have a brother....
***
As is his M/O, whenever we discuss a topic upon which we disagree and I start with the principle and work Socratically toward the end of the argument, he begins to get emotional, aggressive and pulls some emotive moral supremacy card out of his butt crack. He has to. He can't argue the principle. His only option is to derail the conversation with insults, condescension and dismissals. Now, he's not as vulgar as 46and2, but it's the same technique. My brother and I don't talk anymore.

I think you are on to something there, darth.
This describes perfectly well why we can't have discussions with some people We simply have to defeat them, one way or another.

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible."
-- Justice Janice Rogers Brown

"The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth."
-rduckwor

December 04, 2021, 09:52 AM

Keystoner

quote:
Originally posted by Fed161:
I am on the pro-life side of this issue, although I am not an absolutist. I could never deny a rape victim an abortion, and I don't see how anyone could.

Have you tried? I think I can see your point of view and I suspect it isn’t consistent. Why do you consider yourself pro-life? Is it because you value the life of the unborn and you don’t think it is justified to kill it when weighed against, for example, an irresponsible couple who doesn’t want it and for whom it would be inconvenient, for whatever reasons, to have a baby? In the case of rape, now you can justify it. Now you value the rape victim over the human life inside her—is that right?

I appreciate the sympathy for rape victims. I hate being accused of not caring for them. To be sure, I want the most extreme tortuous punishment for rapists. Pro-choice people always assume the worst possible scenarios for the remainder of the life of the mother and child. This is what they’re doing when they bring up rape. They care, but they prefer to assume the worst instead of giving the kid a chance to change and create their own circumstances in life. I have hope for what positive life can bring and I envision the baby growing up to be eternally grateful to the mother for letting him or her live.

December 04, 2021, 10:02 AM

bdylan

quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:
I've voted Republican my entire life and I will help the Left (politically) crush the pro life movement myself, if it comes to that and this kooky b.s. is successful.

I know lots of folks moving to Texas to help flip it, and none of them vote GOP, and that's just one vector of political vulnerability that the GOP faces nationwide.

This is a religious political legal figurative-coup, overtruning Roe, and it will have major consequences, politically speaking. You're driving the middle away with this religious fundamentalist insanity.

It's incredibly short sighted and may be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back. Without the middle, the Right may never win another Presidency.

You kooky fucks with backwards priorities may destroy the whole thing with your selfish attempts to enforce your beliefs on others under the guise of this b.s.

Fuck you all, when it comes to this topic. You really don't want people like me helping the Left in any way whatsoever. You very much need my vote and support.

The (legal, non violent, etc) consequences for overturning Roe will be dire, I bet.

You dickheads are playing dangerous political games, and it will be costly, I think.

Fucking loathsome meddlesome assholes, those who pursue this topic, you appallingly simple minded motherfuckers, seriously, fuck... you... all..., regarding this topic.

Stow your responses, you've earned this shit.

Have a lovely day.

That's one of the most extreme positions in favor of abortion I've ever encountered. Roe was never legit law...even leftist realize this fact. Can't imagine why you would think the 'middle' is in favor of pretending the Constitution takes a position on abortion. The States will better reflect the actual will of the voters.

December 04, 2021, 10:23 AM

ElToro

I’m pretty sure this is why Para has nuked these threads for 20 years.

If definitely needs to be a states rights issue as do almost all issues. But the left & media will never explain it to the masses that way. It will get spun as hand maids tale and republicans anti women and all that crap.

December 04, 2021, 10:32 AM

sigcrazy7

quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:

you appallingly simple minded motherfuckers, seriously, fuck... you... all..., regarding this topic.

Well I'm convinced.

December 04, 2021, 10:36 AM

Bytes

quote:
Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:

you appallingly simple minded motherfuckers, seriously, fuck... you... all..., regarding this topic.

Well I'm convinced.

Same here. I was on the fence but when presented with the above sound and logical arguments I've made a decision.

December 04, 2021, 10:52 AM

Keystoner

His whole argument is 'we have to save the party.'

December 04, 2021, 11:30 AM

Balzé Halzé

^^^ To that point, in regards to Roe and it being precedent, the pro-abortion advocates seem to have only one argument in front of the Supreme Court. And that is "no backsies!"

December 04, 2021, 11:34 AM

egregore

quote:
Originally posted by sigcrazy7:

[redundant nested quote removed]

Well I'm convinced.

I was leaning in the direction of "safe, legal and rare," but this and other antics have driven me away from even this.

December 04, 2021, 12:00 PM

bigdeal

quote:
Originally posted by Keystoner:
quote:
Originally posted by Fed161:
I am on the pro-life side of this issue, although I am not an absolutist. I could never deny a rape victim an abortion, and I don't see how anyone could.

Have you tried? I think I can see your point of view and I suspect it isn’t consistent. Why do you consider yourself pro-life? Is it because you value the life of the unborn and you don’t think it is justified to kill it when weighed against, for example, an irresponsible couple who doesn’t want it and for whom it would be inconvenient, for whatever reasons, to have a baby? In the case of rape, now you can justify it. Now you value the rape victim over the human life inside her—is that right?

I appreciate the sympathy for rape victims. I hate being accused of not caring for them. To be sure, I want the most extreme tortuous punishment for rapists. Pro-choice people always assume the worst possible scenarios for the remainder of the life of the mother and child. This is what they’re doing when they bring up rape. They care, but they prefer to assume the worst instead of giving the kid a chance to change and create their own circumstances in life. I have hope for what positive life can bring and I envision the baby growing up to be eternally grateful to the mother for letting him or her live.

And how do you approach the issue of choosing between the life/health of the woman or the life of the baby if the latter is placing the former at risk? To me this entire topic is both difficult and there are no simple or one size fits all answers to it. The Left has taken this issue so far into absurdity that its easy to categorically oppose them on it (and I do), but in reality there 'has' to be some reasonable/rational middle ground on the topic. I'm not about to suggest where that line should or shouldn't be drawn, just that the issue itself is not fully black and white in 100% of cases.

All that said, the primary issue with Roe to me is that its just horrible jurisprudence by the high court. On that basis alone it should be overturned.

December 04, 2021, 12:07 PM

Keystoner

quote:
Originally posted by bigdeal:
And how do you approach the issue of choosing between the life/health of the woman or the life of the baby if the latter is placing the former at risk?

In this case the life of the mother takes precedence. Fortunately, this is an extremely rare case. I rationalize this the same way I do when it comes to taking any other life in self-defense.

December 04, 2021, 12:10 PM

darthfuster

quote:
Originally posted by chellim1:
quote:
Originally posted by darthfuster:
I have a brother....
***
As is his M/O, whenever we discuss a topic upon which we disagree and I start with the principle and work Socratically toward the end of the argument, he begins to get emotional, aggressive and pulls some emotive moral supremacy card out of his butt crack. He has to. He can't argue the principle. His only option is to derail the conversation with insults, condescension and dismissals. Now, he's not as vulgar as 46and2, but it's the same technique. My brother and I don't talk anymore.

I think you are on to something there, darth.
This describes perfectly well why we can't have discussions with some people We simply have to defeat them, one way or another.

I have long understood that some people cannot be convinced of truth. They must simply be defeated. More recently I’ve come to understand that emotionalism prevents recognition and acceptance of truth and appears to be the common thread that links those for whom the only option is defeat.

December 04, 2021, 12:22 PM

Balzé Halzé

quote:
Originally posted by bigdeal:
And how do you approach the issue of choosing between the life/health of the woman or the life of the baby if the latter is placing the former at risk?

There is never a situation where an abortion is performed to "save the life of the mother." Never. Don't fall into this trap.

If we're talking about an ectopic pregnancy, that is a situation where the fetus would die no matter what anyway. If surgery were not performed in this case, both the mother and baby would die, so obviously the pregnancy must be terminated. That is not an "abortion" as we're discussing it.

December 04, 2021, 12:30 PM

bigdeal

quote:
Originally posted by Keystoner:
quote:
Originally posted by bigdeal:
And how do you approach the issue of choosing between the life/health of the woman or the life of the baby if the latter is placing the former at risk?

In this case the life of the mother takes precedence. Fortunately, this is an extremely rare case. I rationalize this the same way I do when it comes to taking any other life in self-defense.

Agreed. My only reason for posing the question was to suggest that sitting on the extremes of either side of this issue is likely not rational as there are always nuanced issues to address. The biggest problem I see at this point is trying to drag this issue back to some rational point after allowing it to move so far to the left over the past 20 years that its currently abhorrent to most moral/ethical people. Overturning Roe is a good start though.

December 04, 2021, 12:34 PM

mbinky

quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:
I've voted Republican my entire life and I will help the Left (politically) crush the pro life movement myself

I would feel much better if you just left the republican party and continued voting with your murdering friends on all topics.

December 04, 2021, 01:09 PM

Steyn

quote:
Originally posted by mbinky:
quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:
I've voted Republican my entire life and I will help the Left (politically) crush the pro life movement myself

I would feel much better if you just left the republican party and continued voting with your murdering friends on all topics.

Except that this is most likely a lie. In all probability, this person is one of those liberals who go in social media and state that they are gun owners/support free speech/free markets etc *BUT* are aligned with the left in all but name.

Even if it were not so (which I doubt, but let’s admit it «ad argumentandum») nobody needs or wants more David Frenchs, John McCains or Mitt Romneys.

Screw the lot of them.

Lstly: if one cannot draw the line on «killing babies is wrong in 99.9999999% of the cases», well, we know that one is evil - within or without a religious framework.