No it's not ridiculous. Go to an airshow and look at the crowd, it ain't a bunch of kids. And they like the jets, the big loud modern jets.

WWII isn't the huge draw to the kids of today which it was for us growing up. It just isn't.

There are exceptions of course but warbirds are the draw predominantly of men of a certain age range. The age range isn't veering younger.

We should enjoy them while we can. They will eventually end up in museums and eventually they will make room for more modern interests.

This was a tragedy but I hate it when people use tragedy to form policy. Keep em' flying.

Somebody didn't fly in their designated lane. Either too fast, too slow, didn't arrive at their designated point on-time, over-compensated by speeding up,...who knows.

Will be interesting to hear what the flight plan was and what kindof comms was going on with the Air Boss and pilots.

Yes it is. Because our history is our history. People will have interest in it. This is case unless the communist's are successful at erasing it of course. History is not lost in future generations.
And I am not talking about airshows. And neither were you.

Cut it out

This is a tragic event, and it was preventable. I attended and was involved in some very large airshows in the 80's & 90's and I can tell you a very high level of organization and coordination is required for a successful show. Having large numbers of vintage and modern aircraft in the air at the same time is inherently very dangerous and must be properly managed. A little mistake can have disastrous consequences.

I did watch several of the videos and I have to say that my initial impression, in he minutes before the mid-air, was not good. There were a lot of aircraft, of different types, different speeds, converging in a fairly small area. Based on my past experience this is not a good idea.

It's one thing to have the Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, or other demo teams do high speed merges into close formations. They practice this constantly and have multiple safeguards in place. Even they have the occasional incident.

The unfortunate result will likely be insurance companies driving up their rates or refusing to insure these precious aircraft and airshows. These aircraft are living history and painstakingly and lovingly cared for by mostly volunteers. I think we lose a little something every time one of these historic aircraft are grounded due to insurance reasons.

Interesting snapshot at 3:45 of this video showing the number of aircraft in the air a second before the collision, both aircraft are in frame.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
That's not good....gotta wonder what's going on with air traffic control and who didn't stay in their assigned lane.

No ATC control when A/C are inside the 'box.'

A/C get cleared into the airshow 'box' and are talking to each other to sort out things.

EDIT:

Apparently, there was an issue with instructions issued by the air boss. Again, that is the airspace inside the 'box.' Lastly, the video shows multiple aircraft maneuvering in the airspace. The question I ask: was the 'Air Boss' an FAA controller, or, someone in the CAF designated as such?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mo4040,

quote:

The unfortunate result will likely be insurance companies driving up their rates or refusing to insure these precious aircraft and airshows. These aircraft are living history and painstakingly and lovingly cared for by mostly volunteers. I think we lose a little something every time one of these historic aircraft are grounded due to insurance reasons.

Yeah. Just prior to this was the "Wings Over Houston" show. They had a ground mishap. Pilot was trying to start a Fiesler Storch. Starter couldn't get it going so he got out to hand prop it. The two spotters decided to just hold the aircraft by the empennage rather than sit in the cockpit and hold the brake. Storch being a STOL aircraft had a lot of prop bite and got away. It hit two parked aircraft. Storch ended up wedged under the B-25. Their insurance rates are likely to take a hit as well.

https://twitter.com/NickHofman.../1588013832684830720

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
That's not good....gotta wonder what's going on with air traffic control and who didn't stay in their assigned lane.

A/C get cleared into the airshow 'box' and are talking to each other to sort out things.

EDIT:

you tube video link

Reading info from an aviation forum, supposedly there was an issue with instructions issued by the air boss. Again, that is the airspace inside the 'box.' Lastly, the video shows multiple aircraft maneuvering in the airspace. The question I ask: was the 'Air Boss' an FAA controller, or, someone in the CAF designated as such?

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I've participated in many airshows back in the mid 1980s and early 1990s. This assessment shares much of what I thought while watching the crash videos. Of course, not knowing the plan for this show ~ it will be a long wait for the NTSB findings on how things went bad.



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God speed to all that were lost and their families!

I met some of the B17 crew several years ago. They did a fly-in to the local airport for a several day static display and tour of that plane. Very nice folks indeed. They went out of their way to answer any and all questions I had. As a WW2 history buff, I had a lot of questions.

I have a ton of pictures that I took inside and out of that B17.

All will be missed!

Here's a summary of rules for airshow flying:

https://theaviationist.com/2022/11/15/airshow-safety/

quote:

Originally posted by mo4040:

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
That's not good....gotta wonder what's going on with air traffic control and who didn't stay in their assigned lane.

The question I ask: was the 'Air Boss' an FAA controller, or, someone in the CAF designated as such?

Typically Air Bosses are not FAA controllers.

I’ve spent enumerable hours watching film shot in Europe’s contested airspace, and in doing so, have seen many images of B-17s and B-24s going down due to enemy fighters or flak.

The first piece I saw of this accident left me felling ill because there is film circa mid-1944 of a -17 getting blown in half by probably a 128mm FlaK 40, just aft of the wing spar. It ripped the plane in two, in a manner like this accident.

I’ve thought quite a lot about the brave men who died, trapped in burning uncontrollable aircraft spinning down or the remains of one that was blown to bits. They had possibly three minutes of sheer terror. Here, I doubt they were out of their startle reflex when the plane and tail hit the ground.

Sad day all around.

My friend’s kid jumped out of the B17 a week before the accident. Tragic loss.

Did I miss the name on the B-17? I was on the Madras Maiden and that crew knew their history of these warbirds.

I’m on the CAF email list. They just sent out the NTSB Preliminary report

Prelim Rreport

quote:

Originally posted by downtownv:
Did I miss the name on the B-17?

Texas Raiders.

quote:

Originally posted by snwghst:
I’m on the CAF email list. They just sent out the NTSB Preliminary report

From the report:
...the air boss directed both formations to maneuver southwest of the runway before returning to the flying display area, which was the designated performance area.

[The Air Boss]...directed the fighter formation to transition to a trail formation, fly in front of the bomber formation, and proceed near the 500 ft show line.

The bombers were directed to fly down the 1,000 ft show line...[by the Air Boss]

The 500 ft show line and 1,000 ft show line were 500 ft and 1,000 ft respectively from the airshow viewing line behind which the audience viewed the airshow.

There were no altitude deconflictions briefed before the flight or while the airplanes were in the air.

When the fighter formation approached the flying display area, the P-63F was in a left bank and it collided with the left side of the B-17G, just aft of the wing section...


My thoughts...
I've read but have no way to confirm the Air Boss has a Single Engine Land license, maybe an IFR certification, but the Air Boss has no military experience if online reports are accurate.

Military pilots receive a significant amount of training in formation flying and hundreds of hours of actual formation flying experience. I am interested in what knowledge, training, experience the Air Boss has in formation flying to have been directing these formation changes at such low altitude when the aircraft operates at different speeds.

I find it odd that the show did not have altitude assignments in addition to having 500' of horizonal separation.

It's not clear to me if the show plan included these formation and lead/chase position changes or if they were spur of the moment changes.

I have never flown in an airshow, the shows I've been associated with do not allow anyone in the demonstration flights not required for the aircraft's operation.

I am not qualified in anyway to be an Air Boss.

I have sat in on several airshow briefings to prepare for videoing the show, and as a pilot I was interested in the flight brief and paid attention to all the safety procedures the pilots needed to observe.

When the final report is issued next year, I will be curious to see if my questions are covered.

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The latest report is that the P63 may have suffered a collision with a drone, causing it to lose its engine and strike the B17 before it could do a restart.

LINK

quote:

Originally posted by ChicagoSigMan:
The latest report is that the P63 may have suffered a collision with a drone, causing it to lose its engine and strike the B17 before it could do a restart.

LINK

I am skeptical at this time. The engine is behind the pilot, and a drone isn't much mass. I can't see the engine being damaged at all, and the prop would be pretty difficult to damage instantly to the point of not producing significant thrust. The time involved is just one or two seconds.

I've flown through flocks of birds, including large birds (but not geese) in a turbo prop without destructive damage to props or engines. Lots of minor visible damage but nothing that disabled the aircraft immediately.

If there was a drone up over the field, there will be plenty of evidence aside from this one video.

If it was a bird, there will likewise be multiple videos of it.