Maybe me? I realized that I had not expressed my thoughts clearly, and what I wrote could easily be mis-interpreted, so I canceled to allow some time for re-writing.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck416:
However, no doubt that Messianiac Jews are an offence to those (Jews) who don't accept Jesus as Messiah.

An offense?

I can understand not accepting contrary ideas, but being offended by someone else’s religious beliefs—? Are Jews offended by the fact that Christians believe Jesus is the messiah?

I’m not a Christian, but when I was I don’t believe I’d have been offended by someone’s calling himself a “Christian for Muhammad.” I might have thought it odd, but offensive? No. And it wouldn’t even be as odd as some of the sects and cults that have identified themselves as Christian—including some to this day.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Maybe me? I realized that I had not expressed my thoughts clearly, and what I wrote could easily be mis-interpreted, so I canceled to allow some time for re-writing.

No it was another member.

quote:

Originally posted by mark123:

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Maybe me? I realized that I had not expressed my thoughts clearly, and what I wrote could easily be mis-interpreted, so I canceled to allow some time for re-writing.

No it was another member.

It was doc45. I'm interested in his opinion as well.

I have some close family that attend both "traditional" Christian church as well as services at a local Messianic Jewish congregation. I've attended the latter a few times and have also attended a rather large community Seder meal that the same congregation hosts each year. The people there were quite friendly and attire was typically casual.

I thought the music and the historical significance of their services was very interesting. I don't know if any of the membership here are familiar with Messianic praise and worship musician Paul Wilbur - he performed at the last Seder I attended and I've become a fan of his.

I received a reply:

quote:

Shalom, Mark! Yes, Jew and Gentile alike are welcome - in fact, the only person we know for sure is Jewish is our Rabbi. The yarmulke is not required, and men and women are not separated. We're a pretty casual congregation, just nothing flashy, low cut, too short or extremely tight. Please let us know if we can help you with anything else! You and your family are welcome to come anytime.

Oh! Yes, there are several people to help with the Hebrew, but the biggest portions are used over the projector and have the English underneath.

חג פסח שמח!
Chag Pesach Sameach!

quote:

nothing flashy, low cut, too short or extremely tight

No stripper shoes or mini skirts for you Mark. Hopefully you still decide to check it out.

When you can self identify as anything you want, words lose their meanings.

Weren't we just talking about this?

No disrespect to anyone or their belief system, but if you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savor, believe his is the Messiah and the Son Of God, you have left the reservation that defines Jewishness.

Live well, be a good person and be happy. Whatever god you worship ought to be best pleased by that.

YMMV,

Bruce

Hi guys, I basically stated what RNshooter did but in a much more rambling, perhaps less coherent manner with some family history thrown in. His words convey my feelings. I also mentioned I didn't intend to offend anyone and if so I apologized in advance.

Upon further reflection I felt it best to delete it.

quote:

Originally posted by doc45:
Hi guys, I basically stated what RNshooter did but in a much more rambling, perhaps less coherent manner with some family history thrown in. His words convey my feelings. I also mentioned I didn't intend to offend anyone and if so I apologized in advance.

Upon further reflection I felt it best to delete it.

I missed it, but being raised in a mixed religion family and having my grandfather be the patriarch of the family (family came through Ellis Island, just prior to WW2). I have observed all holidays at his house since I was born. I can agree.

It's sort of one or the other. Luckily I am so confused about religion I subscribe to none really, other than observation out of respect to my family.

quote:

Live well, be a good person and be happy. Whatever god you worship ought to be best pleased by that.

In my mind if you live to the golden rule and the principles of any non-evil belief system then you are good to go.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Let's see what the Jewish members here say.

In my limited experience, they mostly exist as a mechanism to proselytize to Jews. Their members are not recognized as Jewish (unless they start out that way) by the folks who get to decide such things. As such, they probably should be more correctly referred to as "Mosaic Christians," or something like that. And the faux orthodoxy (yes, I'm judgmental) that some of them exhibit makes no sense to me. My understanding of why Christians do not follow the old testament law is that they believe Jesus fulfilled the law and freed us from its requirements. So how can you believe Jesus was the messiah and still believe you must follow the law?

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Had to google that. Interesting group there. It doesn't appear they follow any one set of rules, and each congregation is different. You'll probably have to go to find out. Now I know what Jews for Jesus is.

They also are about 35% of a coexist sticker.

The symbol hung in a pentecostal/charismatic/Christian-Zionist church I once attended. Everytime I looked at it I thought my Christ isn't a dead fish hanging under anything.

Understand that when you hear the Torah, you are hearing either the first 5 book of the Christian bible, or a combination of that and the Tradition of the Elders. Jesus Christ spoke in harsh terms about the tradition of the elders, or oral law. You've heard it said as "you've heard it said" in the Beatitudes, among other places.

If you are interested in the practices of the 1st century church, stick to the Bible only, and forget the intermingling of any tradition of the elders. The Apostles fought against it. Paul was a partuiculary harsh critic. Anyway, some of what made up character of the 1st century church is lost and cannot be recovered, such as some of the Apostolic gifts from the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles may have been Jews, but they became the first Christians, in part by rejecting the oral law - the law that made Jews Jews - and sticking to the written law of Moses which can be found in the Old Testament of any Holy Bible, along with belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Attend a Messianic service if you wish. Personally, if I did it, it would simply be an academic effort. Judaism and Christianity aren't the same. They may have the same root - and are perhaps distant cousins - but the Christian faith has rejected much of the doctrine that made Jews Jews. I'd personally avoid a church that brings any of those traditions back.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
... Attend a Messianic service if you wish. Personally, if I did it, it would simply be an academic effort. Judaism and Christianity aren't the same. They may have the same root - and are perhaps distant cousins - but the Christian faith has rejected much of the doctrine that made Jews Jews. I'd personally avoid a church that brings any of those traditions back.

Well, that just brings up the reason I even want to attend. See, I've become very dissatisfied with modern day Christianity. It always hits me around easter and christmas because so much emphasis is placed on these two holidays as if the crux of all humanity hangs on them. All while ignoring the actual biblical holidays that have so much more meaning concerning Christianity. The messianic Jews that I've talked to hold the Jewish feast days in high regard but not legalistically, only for their beauty and meaning in their lives.

I don't think that Christians should reject any part of the old testament. Considering the ceremonial law fulfilled is one thing, to call it unchristianlike is improper.

In my case, instead of avoiding a church that brings a biblical tradition back, I'm desiring to avoid churches that adhere to non-biblical traditions that have no place or meaning in my life. I'm also wanting to move past the coddling of childish seeker-friendly sermons and dig into the real meaning of the old and new covenants.

I certainly understand your concerns. I was much the same way. However, it helps to remember that while certain churches underwhelm, it has always been that way. Churches with problems date back to the 1st century. Just read what Christ had to say to them in John's letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor in Revelation. Look at Paul's letter to the Corinthian church. THE church, and churches, are made up of imperfect sinners. But Christ is perfect and never disappoints. If you want perfection, look ONLY to Him, as he is revealed ONLY in the bible.

One thing that helped me was to view it this way: there is THE church (the worldwide church made up of all Christ's disciples), there are churches (congregations), and there is my fellowship of Christian friends who are both part of the worldwide church, and a church congregation, but who are also my close personal friends in whom I confide, seek advice, seek accountability, prayer, etc. It is the latter group that holds the most importance for me - not that the others are unimportant by any means.

I've never been so close to all the people in my church so as to know initimate things about them. I mean, I have no idea who may be sleeping with his step-mother (1 Corinthians). And it seems most people there have a different idea of what it means to be a Christian. They have different views on sacraments, repentenance, etc. Heck, most of them don't even know what is in the church's statement of faith. That's okay, though. They are all, including myself, imperfect sinners. I go there to worship God, fellowship with a wide range of people, serve, get involved in larger projects.

It's my close circle of Christian friends that means the most to me. I do know them more intimately. We mostly have the same views on the doctrine and theology. My group most resembles the most fundamental 1st century church - the group of believers that met in believers' homes.

Churches are compromises. You'll never find one that does everything as you would like it. Not unless you start one. Find one that fits you as best, then commit to getting into it, getting to know people, serving. And draw like minded Christian friends close to you. Then you will start to experience what you are looking for.

Also, there are likely a lot of like-minded Christians out there that have ministries you can get involved with. R C Sproul and Ligonier Ministries, John MacArthur and Grace To You, are a couple I like that seem to distill down the Christian faith to its bibilical essentials. J I Packer, probably my favorite contemporary Christian theologian, has written awesomne book that may appeal to you - Knowing God, and Taking God Seriously, among others. Packer is a conservative Anglican but the biblical truths in his books transcend Christian denominations.

Good luck, brother. I'll pray for you that you are led to the right place.

quote:

Originally posted by Micropterus:
Churches are compromises. You'll never find one that does everything as you would like it.

Maybe I've had one too many tonight, and maybe I should keep my mouth shut, but I just couldn't let this one go by without commenting.

Faith and the Church are not about compromises, nor are they about fitting into your selfish beliefs.

Jesus Himself said, "I am the way the truth and the life". It is about Him, and not about you and what you would like. His teachings are perfection and are not up to interpretation by anyone. He doesn't bow to you, you bow to Him.

One shouldn't seek out a church that "fits" with their interpretation of Christianity. Rather, one should change their life to "fit" with Christianity. The truth is there for anyone willing to see it. It ain't an easy road to travel, but nothing worth having is.

Unfortunately, far too many are indeed selfish and subscribe to cafeteria Christianity and I think that a lot of the Protestant churches are just that. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. If you think that you can abide by most of the ten commandments, but say, "That whole adultery thing? But she's really hot. Meh...". Well, I hope you like fire.

I don't mean to evangelize, proselytize, witness, or anything else here and Lord knows I'm not perfect...far from it, but I am often troubled by how selfish mankind has become, especially with regard to religious practices. Either you believe in God and strive to live your life as He commands, begging forgiveness when you fail as we all do, or you don't. It's really that simple. It is non-negotiable. To think, and do, otherwise is to put yourself above God. There's not much future in that.

Apologies to the OP for the thread drift.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustofer:
... Apologies to the OP for the thread drift.

Not at all, friend. You and Micropterus bring up the point. I'm just so completely through with the compromise, hypocrisy and church ego. No one wants to discuss if I have an issue with a translation or sermon point. There's no sounding board for it. There is no discussion for new ideas and when I hear a bad idea I can't mention it.

I went to Sabbath service last night and it was a Torah and New testament portion and not a sermon but a discussion. I was asked what I thought and we all talked afterward instead of racing to the cars to try to get out first.

I can't even let it be known that I purposely don't celebrate easter or any of the catholic holidays present in protestantism at my current church. I'm just looking for something real.

I'm a 20-year convert to Judaism. Never been to one of their services but I have spoken to a few. All nice people who teach their kids to be responsible, tolerant, and moral people.

That's always good enough for me...whatever religion, or lack of religion, a person holds.

However, to me, there is a fundamental disconnect in religious beliefs of someone who proclaims to be a Jew for Jesus, religiously. As others may have noted, a religious Jew does not believe Jesus was the Messiah. He has not yet come yet, or the Messianic era for some Jews.

Ergo, if you do believe Jesus was the Messiah, you cannot be Jewish. If you were born and raised Jewish and accept Jesus religiously, you become a Christian of Jewish descent, etc. That's my personal belief. So when I see Christians adopting broad, largely cultural, aspects of Judaism, to me I find it somewhat offensive/tedious. But I won't debate it because at the end of the day they are trying to be good people.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Batty67,

quote:

Originally posted by Batty67:
... So when I see Christians adopting broad, largely cultural, aspects of Judaism, to me I find it somewhat offensive/tedious. But I won't debate it because at the end of the day they are trying to be good people.

I'm not exactly interested in the traditional aspects as I am in the biblical truth that is overlooked in the Christian church. In other words, I'm not looking to somehow become Jewish, I'm looking to live biblically. I find that difficult in today's church. I'm through with churchianity.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mark123,

In my humble opinion Batty67 has got it right. Nuf said.