If they timing chain was stretched by a significant amount, I would expect a check engine light due to the cam timing being off, especially on an engine with variable valve timing.

The 0W-20 wt viscosity oil has nothing to do with this.

Timing chain stretch is not the stretching of the timing chain, it is an elongation of the timing chain caused by wear to the chain’s components. The two most common cause of timing chain stretch is lack of maintenance (regular oil changes) and/or prolonged idling since most timing chains are essentially splash and/or oil mist lubricated. The longer the chain the more the slop is amplified because of more links that wear.

quote:

Originally posted by sns3guppy:
It doesn't. Increased wear causes increased values in every link, causing a longer chain, just as wear affects many other clearances within the engine.

Change the oil more frequently.

The engine wears. The oil carries the wear particles, much of which is too small for the filter. That increases wear further, regardless of oil type.

Now, you're on point and actually focused on both the timing chain and the 2nd half of the OP's mechanics assertion - long oil changes. However, you're still ignoring the 1st half of the OP's mechanics assertion - oil grade.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
I would be worried that an engine that's designed for 20 weight oil at temperature might have flow issues with a higher viscosity oil. The engine tolerances may be designed around 20 weight.

And this is the point at which I always offer up this little tidbit. The Honda Pilot my wife drives calls for 0w20. The exact same vehicle, build on the exact same assembly line(s), but shipped to Australia for sale, calls for 5w30. This light weight oil nonsense is purely game playing to try and placate US CAFE standards.

^^ THIS ^^

0W is great for cold weather starting, and getting lubrication flowing slightly faster than 5W which flows faster than 10W. My 0W concern has always been on year around use and use in places there is never cold weather.

Since the oils are dual rated, my other concern is once the engine is up to temperature the difference in shear rate and viscosity between the SAE 20 and SAE 30. 30 has better lubrication performance, but the higher viscosity produces more drag on the motor which slightly lowers fuel economy.

I think there is still wisdom in how my Dad did it when I was a kid - 10W30 in the spring oil change and 5w30 in the fall oil change. If you live further north (e.g. Duluth) then perhaps 5w 30 in the spring and 0w30 in the fall might be better.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tatortodd,

My company formulates and manufactures engine oil additives. We also formulate the engine oil but don’t manufacture this, only test various formulations.

Additives make a difference in timing chain wear. We measure it on a specific test engine. Buy a good oil. Ensure it is credentialed with GF5 or GF6 designation.

I cannot give a specific oil recommendation. We sell to nearly every major and many minor oil companies.

Please remember that the testing on engine oils is millions of dollars. Millions. Viscosity is carefully evaluated. Is higher viscosity better? The answer is always “it depends.” Which test? Which base oil? In what engine? It is never easy. Just remember that the oem validated the 0w20 with so much care. Truly. They are risk averse, particularly Honda.

Follow the schedule.

4MUL8R, glad you chimed in as you have a unique perspective.

quote:

Just remember that the oem validated the 0w20 with so much care. Truly. They are risk averse, particularly Honda.

They are risk averse, but their risk ends at the conclusion of the powertrain warranty (e.g. 5 years, 60k miles). It's not like federal regulators are going to force a recall on something not safety related.

Their engineers are balancing tradeoffs like you mentioned, but they're also balancing the tradeoffs on an engine at 0 hours and also on an engine at the end of the powertrain warranty that no longer has the same tolerances.

I don't know the answer, but I'd wager it's between very little and zero time spent on whether or not 0w20 is appropriate for an engine at 2x or 3x its powertrain warranty.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
I would be worried that an engine that's designed for 20 weight oil at temperature might have flow issues with a higher viscosity oil. The engine tolerances may be designed around 20 weight.

And this is the point at which I always offer up this little tidbit. The Honda Pilot my wife drives calls for 0w20. The exact same vehicle, build on the exact same assembly line(s), but shipped to Australia for sale, calls for 5w30. This light weight oil nonsense is purely game playing to try and placate US CAFE standards.

I agree. ^^^^^. It's 100% EPA bullshit.

My '17 Mazda called for 0-20 in the USA... In EVERY OTHER COUNTRY in the world... in both warmer and colder climates it calls for thicker oil. Every. Single One. Now why would they do that? If 0-20 is best for the engine why don't they recommend that everywhere?

Here is what I did. I change my own oil...
I ran the official $10 a qt factory branded oil in 0-20 until the warrantee ran out, then I switched to 5-20 for winter, may do 10-30 in summer, whatever syncs up best with the weather. No more 0-xx.

Even more interesting... from the Mazda forums, most if not all Mazda dealers use straight bulk 30 weight Castrol GTX for oil changes.

My 2018 bmw calls for 0w20 every 10k miles or 1 year. My daughter’s 2020 subaru calls for 0w20 every six months or 6k miles.

The 0w20 is to meet care standards. I’m still running full synthetic 5w30 in my bmw with no issues. Every 6 months or 7.5k miles.

Her car is only at 3k miles. Not sure what to do. I might just do the 0w20 every 6 months or 5k miles while it’s under warranty. My car is about to hit 70k miles.

The 0w20 oil isn’t the culprit, it’s extended oil change intervals and poor metallurgy. GM is having worse problems than Honda with chain stretch in both the 3.0/3.6 v6 engines, and the ecotec engines. Nissan has problems with their 3.5. The additives make up for the thinner oil, but you still have to change it, and the engineers need to do their part to make sure the chains hold up. Toyota isn’t having problems with the long-ass chains in their 4.6/5.7, and while ford may have problems with their cam phasers, their chains don’t stretch in the 3.5eb/4.6/5.4. I make a small fortune off of car makers’ engineering disasters. I was sad to see the timing chains go until I found out that we would be replacing chains just as often, and at twice the price.

Sorry but I’m not buying what one mechanic, with no scientific proof, “thinks” is causing the problem. Maybe he’s a great mechanic maybe he’s not, he’s given his opinion based on his observations but I doubt there’s any quantifiable evidence to prove his theory. There are too many other factors involved to come to the conclusion that it’s oil weight related.

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:
My company formulates and manufactures engine oil additives. We also formulate the engine oil but don’t manufacture this, only test various formulations.

Additives make a difference in timing chain wear. We measure it on a specific test engine. Buy a good oil. Ensure it is credentialed with GF5 or GF6 designation.

I cannot give a specific oil recommendation. We sell to nearly every major and many minor oil companies.

Please remember that the testing on engine oils is millions of dollars. Millions. Viscosity is carefully evaluated. Is higher viscosity better? The answer is always “it depends.” Which test? Which base oil? In what engine? It is never easy. Just remember that the oem validated the 0w20 with so much care. Truly. They are risk averse, particularly Honda.

Follow the schedule.

Do you happen to work for Ethyl Oil by chance?
I built a house for a guy that ran their R&D department when the company moved from MO to VA several years ago and had some very interesting discussions with him regarding oil viscosities, particularly using 0W-40 oil in my Porsche..

One other piece of information I remember (I think) was that there is really no such thing as 0W-X oil it is 2 or 3W...

quote:

Originally posted by BBMW:
I would be worried that an engine that's designed for 20 weight oil at temperature might have flow issues with a higher viscosity oil. The engine tolerances may be designed around 20 weight.

Worry all you want, there is no design tolerance difference for say 0/20 to 5/30. Its all for US CAFE standards and fleet averages.

Think less engineering and more estimated useful life and asset depreciation tables.

"How long can this engine last running on this oil that is not the best, but will give us better MPG"?

quote:

Originally posted by 4MUL8R:
My company formulates and manufactures engine oil additives. We also formulate the engine oil but don’t manufacture this, only test various formulations.

Additives make a difference in timing chain wear. We measure it on a specific test engine. Buy a good oil. Ensure it is credentialed with GF5 or GF6 designation.

I cannot give a specific oil recommendation. We sell to nearly every major and many minor oil companies.

Please remember that the testing on engine oils is millions of dollars. Millions. Viscosity is carefully evaluated. Is higher viscosity better? The answer is always “it depends.” Which test? Which base oil? In what engine? It is never easy. Just remember that the oem validated the 0w20 with so much care. Truly. They are risk averse, particularly Honda.

Follow the schedule.

Thank you for this. OPs experience and comments by his tech are purely anecdotal. They’re personal, but not statistically significant, and we can learn very little from them. Additionally, not all 0W-20 is created equal. Toyota’s 0W-20 is made by Mobil, but is very different than Mobil’s own 0W-20 available off the shelf. BMW specs Long Life (LL01, 02, etc) oil for their cars, very different than standard off the shelf 0W-40s. It’s not just about grade, in fact, it’s less and less about grade, and more about the additive package engineered for the specific application.

If 0W-20 oils were the root cause, then everyone's timing chains would be having this problem.

It is worth noting, however, that all SN+ and SP rated oils (with SP/GF-6A rating) are significantly improved in timing chain wear protection. This is part of the standard that all oils with that rating must meet.

quote:

Originally posted by tatortodd:
Now, you're on point and actually focused on both the timing chain and the 2nd half of the OP's mechanics assertion - long oil changes. However, you're still ignoring the 1st half of the OP's mechanics assertion - oil grade.

How about you let me speak for myself, and you're welcome to say anything you want, too. I have no need to address something in a reply simply because you think it needs to be addressed.

The oil grade, as you've brought it up is specified by the manufacturer. It's spelled out in the owners manual for that car (page 277):

http://techinfo.honda.com/rjan.../0A1313/0A1313OM.PDF

Synthetic is authorized, and any commercial oil of the appropriate viscosity. Additives re not recommended.

The original poster had the car less than 3 months. He got it with 90,000 miles, and had no way of knowing what the prior maintenance was on that engine, or even if the correct grade had been used, what quantities had been maintained, change intervals, or anything else. Even if he had reports of when it was done, as someone else owned and operated the vehicle, he has no way to know.

To make a wild guess as to the cause of the timing chain problem is far from science, let alone an indictment on the engine oil operating weight or viscosity.

Not sure how much if any, blame goes to O-20 oil. That said, I have no problem with 5w-30, especially in the warmer months.

The oil viscosity is a rating and you should refer to your owner's manual for the correct one to use. Many people like to use oil with a higher viscosity than is standard and that is OK but that higher viscosity does not relate to wear. If you refer to your owner's manual you will see that there are several different viscosities recommended. Manufacturers normally recommend higher viscosities for warmer climates and lower viscosities for cool climates, but if you look at and actually read the manual you will see that there is a lot....A LOT... of room for overlap.

However, do not confuse the viscosity with the technical specifications of the oil. While the viscosity is only a climate adjustment, it is the API Service Category that defines the quality of the oil. Generally gasoline lubricants are designated by an "S" followed by a second letter. When a Service Category is updated the second letter is changed. Service Category "SA" was the first iteration, contains no additives and is not compatible with engines built earlier than 1930. Through the years we have moved through the alphabet and the most current version is "SP". This was introduced in May 2020 and is designed for the current flock of turbo-charged, high mileage and E85 engines. You need to look in your owner's manual to verify which API rating you need and always get that level or higher. Note that the service categories are backwards compatible so any car that needs for instance a Service Category of "SF" can use later version such as "SG" or "SH".

As for the wear issue the OP is referring to, I was a Mobil Oil and Gasoline distributor since the early days of synthetic oils in the mid 1970's. I have been using 0W-20 and 5W-20 viscosities in my personal vehicles since 1977. Generally, I keep my vehicles for 10 or more years and regularly accumulate 200K miles by the time I replace them. I have never had an engine failure, either with a timing belt or timing chain engine. During this time, I had a Cadillac, Datsun 280Z, Mazda RX-7, Volvo 244, Hondas (4), Toyota Tacoma and currently have a Lexus as well as a Miata. In fact, I had a 4 cylinder Nissan Frontier I had till 230K miles. Before selling, I conducted a compression as well as a cylinder leakage test, each with very good readings...near new specifications. So I would not jump to a conclusion that the oil is the cause of premature timing chain or belt failure.

I don't think the Honda cam sprocket rattle problem has anything to do with lubrication.
When they do the update they replace the chain and tensioner to cover their ass and add a little profit to the job.
These engines (also used in some Accords) have a design problem that is addressed by the update, not a lubrication specification problem.