Watch the video in its entirety, note at the end why you shoot until they are no longer a threat.



Also watch this one (different incident):



The above POS was a Robbery suspect who as a result of all that shooting sustained non-life threatening injuries.

and a third video of another incident:

Amazing example of why having a gun doesn't always mean others will back down that dude had no fear of the gun being out..

HRK watch the second one, I added it after you posted. Two officers with pistols pointing at him and a third officer with a taser.

[quote]Amazing example of why having a gun doesn't always mean others will back down that dude had no fear of the gun being out..[/quote

You can add lack of respect for authority, failure to follow simple commands and lack of common sense to the mix.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:
[quote]Amazing example of why having a gun doesn't always mean others will back down that dude had no fear of the gun being out..[/quote

You can add lack of respect for authority, failure to follow simple commands and lack of common sense to the mix.

ZSMICHAEL, you just described the criminal thought process to a T.

That guy in last one must have been high.

quote:

You can add lack of respect for authority, failure to follow simple commands and lack of common sense to the mix.

I'm going back to 10MM or maybe that 40MM

Holy shit. $45k a year to deal with the scum of the earth? Fuck that.

Also shows the relative ineffectiveness of handguns in stopping a threat.

A gun & badge does not scare hardened criminals. They know their ROE is different from the police, they also sense fear and hesitation more than the average person.

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
Holy shit. $45k a year to deal with the scum of the earth? Fuck that.

I see you’re in Florida, which I have found to have some of the worst LE salaries in the country.

My agency in Iowa starts at $50k, and tops at about $74k. I know a cop in a neighboring agency that makes more than $100k a year as a street cop at the line level thanks to OT.

The southeast is not known for paying cops well. It’s a shame.

I am going down the rabbit hole now thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie:

quote:

Originally posted by HRK:

quote:

You can add lack of respect for authority, failure to follow simple commands and lack of common sense to the mix.

I'm going back to 10MM or maybe that 40MM

This video really showed the lack of effectiveness of this officers handgun. Probably a 9mm? This makes a good case for something with more oomph.....

What evidence do you have that any of the guns were 9mm? I know you said it with a question mark. The last shooting I am personally aware of was with a .40. 10 good hits, and the guy lived. I am really not for sure at all that you can glean anything from any of that except to accept that handguns suck for shooting people.

KSP issued the 1076 for many years and had lots of shootings to where the suspect lived. One happened right up the road on the side of the interstate where a guy with a tire iron attacked a trooper. Trooper shot him 7 times near point blank center mass with a 1076. Guy is alive today. Their last 11 shootings with the 9mm have all been fatals. I know that means absolutely nothing, but it is just perspective.

If one wants to see how ineffective or how similar all pistols are regardless of caliber, Google Deputy Jared Reston from the JCSO in Florida. Long story short, he and an offender were trading shots. Jared had a G22 40 S&W, the BG had a G21 45. Multiple hits on both including Jared being shot in the face with a 45. What ended the fight was a close range head shot by Jared. He could have accomplished the same thing with a 9mm which is what he now carries. I know we have all heard the old adage of don't carry anything that doesn't begin with a 4 and I too am of a generation where the 45 was King but that is no longer true. The 9 is fine and certainly equal to the 45.

Yep, shot placement is the key. In the first video, POS was still punching cop as the cop unloaded pistol into thug. It wasn't until the cop got a good Center of Mass shot right in the heart area. As a result POS had a sudden drop of blood pressure and went down and out. Similar thing in the third video, cop took time to aim as he was slicing the pie on his vehicle. First shot hit cop's passenger door window. Next shot was the fight stopper. POS when down but was still active on the pavement with the pistol right next to him.

As long as the bullet expands, it doesn't really matter how big it is (really, come on guys you have heard that from your wives and girlfriends before), as long as the shot is placed right.

That pedestrian and whoever was in the family truckster driving down the street before they turned around in that 3rd video sure happened upon an interesting scene. It looks like Mr. Pedestrian kept casually making his way to the pawn shop despite the gunfire exchange happening 50 yards from him.

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:
Yep, shot placement is the key. In the first video, POS was still punching cop as the cop unloaded pistol into thug.

Yeah, that was pretty instructive. I was sure, absolutely sure he was stabbing the officer, and that whatever he was stabbing him with clattered to the ground between them in the last second or two of the video, so I did some looking. Couldn’t find anything about the officer getting stabbed, thankfully. I’m glad those turned out to be just punches because where he landed those hits would have super bad news for that officer if it had been a puncture weapon of some sort.

quote:

Originally posted by P220 Smudge:

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:
Yep, shot placement is the key. In the first video, POS was still punching cop as the cop unloaded pistol into thug.

Yeah, that was pretty instructive. I was sure, absolutely sure he was stabbing the officer, and that whatever he was stabbing him with clattered to the ground between them in the last second or two of the video, so I did some looking. Couldn’t find anything about the officer getting stabbed, thankfully. I’m glad those turned out to be just punches because where he landed those hits would have super bad news for that officer if it had been a puncture weapon of some sort.

I think the POS may have has something "loaded" his fist (like using a roll of dimes or quarters) to hit harder.

quote:

Originally posted by Revolution37:

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
Holy shit. $45k a year to deal with the scum of the earth? Fuck that.

I see you’re in Florida, which I have found to have some of the worst LE salaries in the country.

My agency in Iowa starts at $50k, and tops at about $74k. I know a cop in a neighboring agency that makes more than $100k a year as a street cop at the line level thanks to OT.

The southeast is not known for paying cops well. It’s a shame.

For that matter, jobs here in central Florida seem to pay low in general. Cost of living seems to still be high, though.

I think some of the more rural counties around here even start off in the mid-$30's...

From Beau Doboszenski

Ever since the 1986 FBI Miami Shootout, much explored in the lore of defensive handgun use, the federal government has demanded depth testing of defensive ammo via ballistic gelatin. Ballistic gelatin is made from gelatin and water and simulates the density and viscosity of humans and animal flesh. For a defensive round to be considered for government use, when shot it must successfully meet the depth standard of 12”-18” into the gelatin.

LuckyGunner conducted the most complete testing I’ve seen on this topic. Of the 52 defensive 9mm brands tested, only 2 did not meet the FBI standard of 12”-18.” That means that virtually ALL POSSIBLE BRANDS tested met the FBI depth standard. So you can reasonably assume that any common brand of defensive ammo from a reputable manufacturer will effectively penetrate to the organs of a threat. In other words, when it comes to defensive ammo, don’t sweat the brand.

2. Defensive ammo has a common effect across the common defense calibers, so ignore the “stopping power” argument and focus on your speed and accuracy.

In the same LuckyGunner testing, the average total depth of ALL 9mm rounds was 17.4 inches. The average depth of all .40 was 18.7 inches, and the average total depth of all tested .45 was 18.4 inches. All three effectively achieve the FBI standard of 12”-18” of depth for effective use, and on the HIGH end of the spectrum.

Since effective depth is essentially equivalent across the three common defense calibers, let’s instead focus on a different consideration, as outlined in the study done about law enforcement engagements by Greg Ellifritz. He notes that the average number of rounds on target necessary to stop a threat for 9mm was 2.45; for .40 it was 2.36; and for .45 it was 2.08. Since you can’t shoot fractions of a round, this tells you that all calibers would require 3 shots. In essence, IT DOESN’T MATTER which of the three calibers you shoot because the number of rounds on target to stop the threat is the same!

3. Therefore, you should carry the ammo and caliber that you can carry the most of, and can shoot the fastest and most accurately.

I started my concealed carry journey carrying a 1911 .45. I found that I could only do .3-.25 splits while keeping rounds effectively on target (though I’ll admit I didn’t yet have proper form or training). Once I learned how to shoot correctly, I switched to a .40, and at my best I was doing .2-.25 splits on target. About 5 years ago I switched to 9mm, and since then my splits have dropped to .14-.18.

For a clear comparison, let’s assume my draw times remain the same over time with a first shot at 1.2 seconds and that the difference among the firearms is irrelevant. Here’s what happened when I changed calibers for a 3 shot defensive burst on a threat:

image
I prefer where the 9mm leaves me in this scenario. Not only are my splits faster, but I can carry more 9mm ammo at a time. And which 9mm defensive round should I pick? As I mentioned above, I have 50 to choose from.

If you have good training and a quality and consistent firearm, feel free to buy whatever defensive ammo you can find on sale from a reputable company. And don’t worry about becoming an expert on ballistics, unless this interests you for other reasons.

Until next time, train hard and stay safe.

B

quote:

Originally posted by jsbcody:
I think the POS may have has something "loaded" his fist (like using a roll of dimes or quarters) to hit harder.

Yeah, makes sense.

quote:

Since you can’t shoot fractions of a round, this tells you that all calibers would require 3 shots.

I won’t get into the rest of the discussion and claims but for the sake of the ignorant, that statement is an obvious fallacy based on a misunderstanding of statistical averages.

No “stop” that involves a hit can be the result of less than one, but they can require far more hits. I would be curious to know where those “stops” figures came from because I’m not aware of any statistically and scientifically valid studies of the question. But even if we assume that they are correct, a cartridge that neutralizes a threat with a lower average number of shots than another will do so more often with fewer shots than a cartridge with a higher number. That’s what averages are all about.

And as for the effectiveness of various cartridges, I recommend the book Pulling the Trigger, a 25-year study of deadly force encounters by Larry Brubaker. The book doesn’t attempt a scientific level evaluation of different cartridges, but it makes it clear that a very large percentage of “stops” are achieved with a single shot, not three. I haven’t read the book in several years so my memory is a little fuzzy, but as I recall that most of the shootings described were also with the 40 S&W cartridge.