quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:

I am trying to find the website that has the paths of both vessels plotted out based on time and position - I was having coffee with some AF guys yesterday and they mentioned that it was an odd accident and there was some evidence of intentionally turning into the path of the destroyer

MarineTraffic.com had the track of the ACX Crystal, but you have to be a subscriber to see more than 24 hours in the past. That's not necessary since I made a decent screen capture too. There will be no website plotting the track of a military vessel.

Following is an "artist's rendition" of the very feasible hypothesis-near-theory of Balzé Halzé which is on page 4.



The hypothesis which is now nearly a theory is that, for reasons unknown, the ACX Crystal collided with the USS Fitzgerald. The ACX Crystal was initially unaware that a collision had even occurred. The USS Fitzgerald contacted "command", but not the coast guard. After discovering that the ship had collided with another vessel, the ACX Crystal turned around to investigate near the point of the collision. Approximately an hour after the collision, the ACX Crystal contacted the coast guard to report the collision. Not being able to render aid, the ACX Crystal then resumed a course back to Tokyo.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rh, July 21, 2017 10:44 PM

^^^^
Yeah, that seems to the 95% correct theory in my mind.

No ISIS plot, no "lets RAM em" plot.

Failure of the rules of the road. Two ships trying to occupy the same piece of water at the same time.

Regardless of the 'official' fault, the buck stops at the bridge crew / lookouts. A DDG isn't some cargo ship, it's a warship and should have complete SA over its surroundings and be not only able to see and avoid everything around it, but to defend itself.

I may sound harsh, but their incompetence killed 7 of their shipmates.

quote:

Originally posted by rh:
The hypothesis which is now nearly a theory is that, for reasons unknown, the ACX Crystal collided with the USS Fitzgerald. The ACX Crystal was initially unaware that a collision had even occurred.

You could probably move that we had a collision arrow to right where the collision took place as there is no way they did not know - they were slow to do the 180, that's apparent - enough time to send someone forward to report the bow damage, which could be seen from the deck.

quote:

Originally posted by f2:

quote:

Originally posted by f2:
does it look like the container ship's damage is very high up to where the FITZGERALD's damage is?

maybe the container ship's bulbous bow partially lifted up FITZGERALD as they connected.

As it caved in or penetrated the FITZGERALD's hull

This lubber wants to thank Balzé and others with Navy/MM experience for the explanations. This is where I came to get experienced "consultants"' advice.

quote:

Originally posted by f2:
You could probably move that we had a collision arrow to right where the collision took place as there is no way they did not know - they were slow to do the 180, that's apparent - enough time to send someone forward to report the bow damage, which could be seen from the deck.

I assume that you mean that my "We had a collision arrow" should be moved to the left, not right. Having no naval experience at all, I was just guessing by what Balzé Halzé posted on page 4. The container ship's crew would have very soon known that a collision of some sort occurred, but not with what. Whatever exactly happened will come out in detail later, but I think that my "artistic rendition" created with a 6 year old track pad at 3 AM compiled solely with information from this SIGforum topic and MarineTraffic.com best explains what generally occurred. ("best" meaning most likely to be accurate and also better than what is still on news media outlets.)

I offer my condolences to the families of the deceased in this accident.

One thing about this is the injury to the Captain, sustained in his cabin, according to the story earlier.

There is NO way a ship should get within a specified distance to your ship without the Captain being alerted, whether asleep, on the can, eating, whatever.

That alert would report the circumstances, the predicted closest point of approach, course, speed and distance, kind of ship if known, etc.

I believe that is the standing orders to the OOD on every USN ship. Whether the minimum distance is 2,000 yards (1 nautical mile) or 1,000 yards, it sure isn't 100 yards or closer, certainly while there is time to do something about it.

Maybe they OOD called the Captain, made the report and the Captain went back to sleep, but he had to have been notified, or there is the first screw up.

Fox News is still reporting that the collision occurred at 0230.

I really wish there was some definitive clarification here from the Navy as the US news outlets are obviously still going off of the Navy's statement and trusting that source above others even though, I believe, it is wrong.

The exact time of the incident is clearly not an insignificant detail.

my perspective,

RH's collision point is exactly at the correct point. That is the mark for 130am local.

a minor issue:

The point labeled "coast guard alerted" is somewhat too far along the track.

220am local point is about halfway back towards the 180 deg turn.

I am surprised that it is not generally being reported that the collision time was earlier than 220am

U.S. Navy should announce that (assuming it is true) to stop all the speculation about why the Crystal turned around.

The Navy is probably instituting a very hard lockdown on any officials discussing the accident.

nhtagmember,

w all due respect, that plot makes no sense.

The indicated collision point is an hour after the time the ACX Crystal called in the incident.

quote:

Originally posted by OcCurt:
To the Navy guys on the board:

How much damage can a modern ship take and still fight effectively? Or even fight at all?

The Stark took a single missile hit and almost sank. The Cole took the equivalent of a single missile hit and almost sank. The damage the Fitzgerald took seems about equivalent to a missile hit and appears to be combat ineffective as a result. British warships in the Falklands were taken completely out of action by single hits, several destroyed outright by fire or sinking. Several US Navy ships hit mines in DS/DS and were crippled.

I mean, these are warships right? Taking hits and damage yet still being able to fight would be part of their design, right?

From a non-Navy guy:

All of the other ships were hit by weapons. Weapons with explosives, rocket fuel, etc. This stuff burns and causes other stuffs to burn.

Two ships colliding generally doesn't, ( though every once in a while, can ) cause fires. Fires can destroy a ship without good damage control. Obviously, flooding does a ship no good, but major fires are just about the worst case scenario for a ship and it's crew.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
nhtagmember,

w all due respect, that plot makes no sense.

The indicated collision point is an hour after the time the ACX Crystal called in the incident.

And that picture is abnoxiously HUGE.

Tracking this one as it develops. Rumor (reportedly, from the mom of a sailor aboard, so pound of salt) is that the container ship had turned off running lights and transponder - I've been out of it too long to know if anyone relies on transponders...

Either way, CIC should have had a radar track, Captain should have been on the bridge, and if something weird is happening, go to GQ.

Waiting on more info. My classmate is about to become the J3 (operations) for Pacific Fleet - I'll check in, and see what he thinks.

quote:

Waiting on more info. My classmate is about to become the J3 (operations) for Pacific Fleet - I'll check in, and see what he thinks.

For what it's worth, now that you've outed him, I would recommend not posting anything your classmate tells you. Before this is over, The Navy is going to fire more officers than Stalin.

I'm certain he will report the pending NBOI being assembled in support of this...

quote:

Originally posted by feersum dreadnaught:
Tracking this one as it develops. Rumor (reportedly, from the mom of a sailor aboard, so pound of salt) is that the container ship had turned off running lights and transponder - I've been out of it too long to know if anyone relies on transponders...

Either way, CIC should have had a radar track, Captain should have been on the bridge, and if something weird is happening, go to GQ.

Waiting on more info. My classmate is about to become the J3 (operations) for Pacific Fleet - I'll check in, and see what he thinks.

so I'm curious...

why did the cargo ship alter course 5 times - and what possible reason could there be for completing almost 180 degree turns if not to try to line yourself up with a target you intended to hit?

the final course of the Crystal appears to be almost parallel to its original entry course to the very first slight turn to port (although now much further north)

if it were two airplanes, what would your explanation be?

quote:

Originally posted by nhtagmember:


if it were two airplanes, what would your explanation be?

An intercept...

Looking at that map it looks as if the Fitzgerald saw the collision and attempted to turn away.

I would not be surprised if he is not part of the investigation, in which case will be in radio silence - he's too professional.

Can't put the pieces of the puzzle together and just thinking out loud again.

That's a heavy commercial traffic area it would seem. Some 400(?) ships a day in those lanes. Why wasn't the captain on the bridge to begin with, especially if the ship was expected to sail perpendicular to the flow of commercial traffic (if that was the case)?

Under the circumstances, the captain must have had supreme confidence in his watchstanders and the con for him to be in his rack.

Would be interesting to see both the bridge and CIC/CEC plotting boards ... and the captain's night orders.

Read a comment in a news report from a prior investigative board member for these kinds of incidents and the comment was that sometimes it may take a year for all the pieces to be put together for a minute by minute picture and conclusions drawn. So we may not know the whole story for some time.