quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:

quote:

Originally posted by billnchristy:
You don't go back full emergency from ahead flank often. We did it a couple times during trials.

I did it once.

a sub surfaced in front of the ship and there was no where to go as we were just coming out of Charleston Harbor and private ships were everywhere.

The OOD was looking aft(outside of the bridge) and the helmsman froze...

I walked over to the 1MC and announced to brace for collisions and I pulled both handles to the rear.

The Skipper magically appeared in a puff of smoke and was looking at me like I had killed the Pope.

After everyone got up from hitting equipment and other bulkheads...I was able to explain to the Skipper why I had done it.

He pulled me to the side and thanked me for not allowing the OOD to hit a sub, asked me to be quiet about it and nothing happened to me..even though we destroyed a reduction gear.

I was a GM2 at the time, and was standing a JOOD (navigator) watch.

This right here, tells me a crash back is not quite the smooth unfelt maneuver you're talking about Whatson WI.

Well, it was a nice thread while it lasted. . .

(This endless back-and-forth bickering is a classic way to get a thread locked)

Am still working this, and may have to retract.
data looks good to me


But it appears there was a ship running a course roughly parallel to Crystal.

Ship was Wan Hai 266

At 0130, Wan Hai was 2 miles north of the collision point

Wan Hai 266
6/16/2017 UTC 16:32
75 deg // 16.4 knts



above is track of Wan Hai 266

at about the same time as Crystal, Wan Hai changes from 92 deg to 75 deg

That would put DDG 62 between 2 ships on roughly parallel tracks

Wan Hai 266 is a cargo ship that looks a lot like Crystal, but it is a bit smaller.
198m long by 28m wide Gross tonnage 18872

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sdy,

quote:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:
Well, it was a nice thread while it lasted. . .

(This endless back-and-forth bickering is a classic way to get a thread locked)

No bickering here.

If anyone wants to read the report it is found here.

An executive summary is found beginning on page 11.

back on page 31 hobbs suggested that Crystal may have delayed turning around because of other ships in the vicinity

he may be correct

I posted this video back a ways in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...h_c&feature=youtu.be

It is movie of the plots of multiple ships

I checked 2 of those ships Wan Hai 266 and Bai Chay Bridge w Marine Traffic. The tracks in the video look good for the time of the collision

it appears Crystal had to wait for Bai Chay Bridge and Kiso to clear before turning around

Some of the later "odd" maneuvers of Crystal look like they are avoiding the path of other ships such as HALCYON , MATSUYAMA MARU, and MARION ACE

all of the tracks are not continuously updated so sometimes there are big jumps in position

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
back on page 31 hobbs suggested that Crystal may have delayed turning around because of other ships in the vicinity

he may be correct

I posted this video back a ways in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...h_c&feature=youtu.be

It is movie of the plots of multiple ships

I checked 2 of those ships Wan Hai 266 and Bai Chay Bridge w Marine Traffic. The tracks in the video look good for the time of the collision

it appears Crystal had to wait for Bai Chay Bridge and Kiso to clear before turning around

Some of the later "odd" maneuvers of Crystal look like they are avoiding the path of other ships such as HALCYON , MATSUYAMA MARU, and MARION ACE

all of the tracks are not continuously updated so sometimes there are big jumps in position

Without a scale on the video, which changes periodically, it is hard to visualize distances. 30 minutes is a long time before turning just for traffic.

What I would expect is talk on the radio, especially after the collision, alerting other ships in the area, and some or all of the ships in the vicinity heading to the collision site to render aid if needed.

Also, I've seen no mention of blowing the ship's whistle by either ship, required by the rules. Those whistles are pretty loud, are used in fog, even at night. Had the Ferguson used its whistle in extremis (and it might have for all we know) it might have alerted some of its sleeping crew, maybe even the Captain!

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:

This right here, tells me a crash back is not quite the smooth unfelt maneuver you're talking about Whatson WI.

I guess you're going to believe whatever you want, based on videos you've watched, completely disregarding primary references. Knock yourself out, and have fun in your alternate reality.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
Am still working this, and may have to retract.

But it appears there was a ship running a course roughly parallel to Crystal.

Ship was Wan Hai 266...

at about the same time as Crystal, Wan Hai changes from 92 deg to 75 deg

That would put DDG 62 between 2 ships on roughly parallel tracks

This part is speculation by me: The 20 degree +/- turn by Crystal (like the one you show for Wan Hai) was missed by the Fitzgerald. It shouldn't have been, but who knows - if the plot for Crystal had been constant for a little while, the plotters might have gotten complacent. The plots of all the surrounding ships should be updated regularly, but maybe that wasn't happening. A comparatively small course change like that, and the now gradually closing distance, might be missed by one person. Problem is, it would have to be missed by several independent watch-standers. And that's just the radar. That doesn't include the plot from AIS, which post-dates me - I have no idea how it's displayed or used. It doesn't include the aft lookout - Helen Keller would have seen the ship closing and been screaming about it for many minutes before the impact. I just can't see how so many people could simultaneously drop the ball.

This part is based on what I've seen in person: The final report is going to be something to read. "Ugly" won't begin to describe it. Even if the plots eventually show that Fitzgerald was the stand-on vessel, she still should have taken action to avoid the collision.

The investigation is going to dig up every piece of dirt imaginable. Any preventative maintenance that wasn't done on time (relevant to the collision or not), any training or watchstanding qualifications that aren't perfectly documented (again, relevant or not), all of that will be used at the Green Table. Then, the lawyers for both sides will do everything they can to belittle, befuddle, and discredit any witness used by the opposition. Everyone on board with anything to do with Operations is going to be caught in the fallout, even if they weren't on watch at the time, even if they had no authority over any other watchstander, and even if their own watches were always stood perfectly. It'll be guilt by association.

The plots kept by Fitzgerald's crew will be gone over with a fine-tooth comb, but we (the public) may never see them - we may have nothing better to work with for years than what you're producing right now. A lot of it will be classified "to protect the capabilities of the equipment", ie, "we're embarrassed".

Even the mess cranks will be pariah for a while. That's the sad truth.

Those training records will be heavily scrutinized, as in the patrol boat capture investigation. There, a number of discrepancies were highlighted, personnel of appropriate rate but no record/not trained for the particular assignment, for various reasons.

When my brother and I discussed this incident recently, I realized the only duty I had for which I had been given formal training, other than OCS, was RPS Custodian. Everything else was OJT.

using info from the video and from Marine Traffic, here is pic that shows the geometry

the time stamp is 1633 (about 3 minutes after collision)

The distance between the tracks is about 3200 yards

If DDG 62 had positioned itself right in the middle, it would have had Wan Hai 1600 yards north, and Crystal 1600 yards south

sounds like a tight fit

adding:

on page 31 I posted

"If ACX Crystal had not turned from 85 deg to 68 deg, it would have passed about 2500 yards south of the collision point at roughly 130am. (still pretty close even w/o the turn)"

If DDG 62 missed the Crystal turn at 0115am, they might have thought they were 3200 yards South of Wan Hai, and 2500 yards North of Crystal. (sort of in the middle) Just speculating.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sdy,

I thought about not posting this because it seems so weird.

When you look at the track of Wan Hai, it has been going 16 knts at 92 deg for about ten minutes. then at 0119am it turns to 75 deg

at 0115am, Crystal had turned to 68 deg

That turn to 68 deg put Crystal on a collision course with Wan Hai at about the point where the collision occurred w DDG 62.

The Wan Hai turn at 0119am to 75 deg avoided the collision w Crystal.

If Wan Hai had the AIS data for Crystal, it would have known very shortly after Crystal's turn to 68 deg that there would be a problem.

At the 0115 and 0119 times both Wan Hai and Crystal looked like they wanted to turn more towards the NE towards Oshima. Don't know whether Wan Hai had planned all along to turn at 0119 or whether they reacted to Crystal.

It is also possible that Wan Hai and Crystal coordinated their turns to the NE



Wan Hai track

Might it be that east bound traffic turns NEly to avoid, or give wider berth to, Toshima Island?

definitely possible and even likely

but even so, the Wan Hai was 11 minutes away from a collision or very close encounter w Crystal. (if Wan Hai had not turned at 0119)

Maybe Crystal and Wan Hai were in communication

I keep wondering if the similar courses, speeds, ranges, and maneuvers could have confused DDG 62.

wanted to clean up the relevance of Wan Hai ship

merged a picture of Crystal track and a picture of Wan Hai track into one

The alignment isn't perfect but it is good enough to make the point

The lower green line is Crystal track up to the collision time. The small red x is about the collision point. Scale is in lower left corner

The red line is just for reference

The upper green line is the Wan Hai track. It ends just after the collision. That last green line at the end that goes back SW is just an artifact from the way I selected the data. That is not part of the actual track.

At time of collision, Wan Hai is roughly 3200 yards north

You can see that Crystal and Wan Hai were running generally parallel and there was a "safe space" between them.

Then at 0115 Crystal turns to port. That safe space starts to get small.

At 0119 Wan Hai turns to port and the safe space opens up some. But the space has shifted NE.

If DDG 62 was going generally easterly, Wan Hai was to its port side while Crystal to its starboard side.



The colored ships are not part of the plot at the time of collision. They need to be ignored.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
definitely possible and even likely

but even so, the Wan Hai was 11 minutes away from a collision or very close encounter w Crystal. (if Wan Hai had not turned at 0119)

Maybe Crystal and Wan Hai were in communication

I keep wondering if the similar courses, speeds, ranges, and maneuvers could have confused DDG 62.

I suppose it is not impossible, but if that is the case, then none of the sailors on that ship had any business being at sea without grownups aboard.

We have seen an incident where training and planning a relatively simple movement proved to be disastrously inadequate (the patrol boats seized by Iranians link to report given yesterday..... it wasn't running out of gas!). When I first mentioned it last week, I expressed the worry that something in the management of the Navy had gone seriously wrong. Maybe training and discipline has been swept away in favor of PowerPoint, briefings, relationships, and political correctness.

That area is busy, it was night, but Navy officers on ships have dealt with those things regularly, and often in bad weather.

I read through this entire thread very carefully yesterday. There are a great many observations informed by experience, Navy ship drivers among them, but none if us can figure out a plausible scenario of events on the destroyer. A group FUBAR seems out of the question, but here we are.

Many thanks, by the way, for using those AIS tracks to shed light on what is known.

quote:

Originally posted by sdy:
definitely possible and even likely

but even so, the Wan Hai was 11 minutes away from a collision or very close encounter w Crystal. (if Wan Hai had not turned at 0119)

Maybe Crystal and Wan Hai were in communication

I keep wondering if the similar courses, speeds, ranges, and maneuvers could have confused DDG 62.

They should NOT have. Fitzgerald should have clearly seen 2 different ships on AIS and 2 different ships on radar.

On most of the yachts I run with AIS, the AIS vessels will appear on both your chartplotter and your radar. Also it will show the ships actual heading in front of it (depending on what distance or time you have it set for..... example 5 nautical miles..... or 15 minutes time). I would assume the Navy's would show the same.

Another thing that's really weird. If the Navy was planning on squeezing through these two vessels, it should have been in radio contact with both of them. Also both of them should have seen the Fitzgeralds Navigational lights. Unless was Fitzgerald trying to squeeze between both of these boats undetected to see if they would be spotted for some reason (such as following another ship and not wanting it known that there was a US Navy vessel in the area).

The only other plausible thing I can think of, is if somehow their heading as shown on their electronics got changed. Like the compass for the electronics showed them at say 40 degrees and they really were at 80 degrees and it would shift everything on their screens 40 degrees.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
That area is busy, it was night, but Navy officers on ships have dealt with those things regularly, and often in bad weather.

I read through this entire thread very carefully yesterday. There are a great many observations informed by experience, Navy ship drivers among them, but none if us can figure out a plausible scenario of events on the destroyer. A group FUBAR seems out of the question, but here we are.

'This' is what I can't wrap my head around. A state of the art, incredibly nimble and capable US destroyer (especially when compared to a cargo ship), manned by what should be a very professional, well trained crew, somehow was incapable of keeping their boat out of the track of a lumbering cargo ship, and got broadsided. The level of screw up on the part of the crew and captain would seem almost impossible. Yet we have a mangled destroyer and multiple dead crewmen as evidence.

I just really want to know what 'actually' happened.

What time is generally the standard time that there is a crew shift change on a destroyer?

quote:

Originally posted by bigdeal:
A state of the art, incredibly nimble and capable US destroyer (especially when compared to a cargo ship), manned by what should be a very professional, well trained crew, somehow was incapable of keeping their boat out of the track of a lumbering cargo ship, and got broadsided. The level of screw up on the part of the crew and captain would seem almost impossible. Yet we have a mangled destroyer and multiple dead crewmen as evidence.

That's the crux. Those of us who have been in the Navy or, dealt with the Navy professionally (and this applies to other services as well) I believe have walked away either in awe of the talent and level of responsibility that these men/women are able to handle or, walked away shaking our heads wondering how the-F, things able to get done with the level of stupidity that is displayed.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmy123x:
What time is generally the standard time that there is a crew shift change on a destroyer?

All watches are the same throughout the Navy, barring special case circumstances, but specific timing of watch relief might vary slightly depending on the command, duty section policy or particular watch being stood and amount of time it takes to do a proper turnover. The acceptable time of watch relief varies slightly but generally the watch is relieved 15-30 minutes "early". The collision occurred during the midwatch. Midnight to 4 A.M. (00-0400, balls to 4). The team on watch at the time of collision would have relieved the previous watch at 11:30 P.M. (2330) to 11:45 P.M. (2345) and had been on watch almost two hours. They would have relieved the previous watch with enough time for the previous watch to still catch midrats on the mess decks