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I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted
How to punish Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman

Weekly Standard
Elliott Abrams

While the details of Jamal Khashoggi’s death have not fully emerged, we know the essentials. He died at the hands of Saudi agents in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, and the decision to kidnap or kill him must have been taken at the top of the Saudi political structure. Whether crown prince Mohammed bin Salman asked “will no one rid me of this meddlesome journalist” or specified the methods to be used, he is responsible for Khashoggi’s death.

The Saudi decision to name several senior intelligence officials as sacrificial lambs will fool no one, and the official description—that Khashoggi died in a brawl with the 15 thugs surrounding him—beggars belief. On Friday night I (and no doubt thousands of others) received no less than five emails in English from the Saudi embassy explaining the new official line on Khashoggi, which is that “the discussions that took place between him and the persons with whom he met him during his visit to the Kingdom’s Consulate in Istanbul led to quarrels and an altercation, which tragically resulted in his death.” The official way forward, in addition to prosecuting some intelligence officials and agents, was naming a committee in response to the “urgent need to restructure the General Intelligence Presidency, and overhaul its rules and regulations, as well as, to determine its authorities and assess its procedures and powers within its administrative and ordered organizational sequence to ensure the proper functioning of its work and the determination of responsibilities.” Its chairman: Mohammed bin Salman.

In a cold assessment of this entire incident what leaps forward first is its dangerous stupidity. Khashoggi was a legal permanent resident of the United States, a Washington figure with a huge network of contacts, and a Washington Post columnist. Any harm to him—including “merely” his kidnapping and disappearance into prison or the holding of a show trial—would inevitably become a cause célèbre and damage relations with the United States. It would also inevitably damage Mohammed bin Salman’s own reputation. So the decision to act against Khashoggi was a revelation of ignorance about the United States, impulsiveness, brutality, or all three. In the shadow of the Khashoggi killing we can now see the forcible detention of Lebanon’s prime minister, Sa’ad Hariri, last year as a prelude. It too revealed a thuggish approach and a remarkable lack of understanding of how such events would be viewed in the outside world. It is perhaps not coincidental that MbS, rare among Saudi princes, has spent his entire life in the kingdom and never lived or attended school in the West.

But even after the Hariri debacle, it seems that at the top of the Saudi pyramid there was no one with sufficient knowledge to advise against the assault on Khashoggi, sufficient power to stop it if MbS wanted it, or sufficient courage to disagree with him. So the decision was made and Khashoggi is dead. Now what?

The financiers and businessmen who canceled their trips to Riyadh were acting in part out of hypocrisy: They would all happily get on a plane to Beijing tomorrow. But their professional business judgment about investing in Saudi Arabia today is another matter, and they appear to share the conclusion of many diplomats and Western governments: What happened to Khashoggi is shocking not only in its brutality but because it reveals important facts about the Saudi government. MbS had told an attractive story: that under his leadership the Saudi regime was fast on the road to becoming modern and fully rationalized. Many of the steps he took fit very well in that official Saudi line. He has fully understood for example that they must become less dependent on oil, that their economy cannot prosper without a role for women, that the Wahhabi clergy are a menace to Saudi development, that royal family members must stop stealing the kingdom’s patrimony, and that Iran and not Israel is their enemy. All that was true a month ago and remains true. He is in many important ways a modernizer.

But the image that MbS so carefully built has been smashed. Everyone has been reminded there is no modernizing of the Saudi government, just the sometimes praiseworthy and sometimes disgraceful efforts of one 33-year-old man. Moreover, that man has decided that criticism is tantamount to treason. He has decided that to force the pace of change in the kingdom as he believes he must, all opposition must be crushed—whether it comes from within the royal family or elements of broader Saudi society. No doubt he sees himself as an enlightened despot who must seize all the reins of power or see the brighter future slip away.

This cannot work, for us or for Saudi Arabia. That conclusion is not based only on sentiment or on moral revulsion at what was done to Jamal Khashoggi, whom I knew, but on a realist view of Riyadh. It would not be fair to say that the current Saudi arrangements inevitably led to the gruesome scene in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, but that denouement was more a logical byproduct than an accident. The non-lethal versions were the detention of Hariri and more recently MbS’s bizarre assault on Canada when that nation’s foreign minister published one tweet criticizing Saudi human rights practices. MbS pushed the Canadian ambassador out, stopped flights between the two countries, pulled Saudi investments, and ordered all the thousands of Saudi students in Canada to leave immediately. Both times his reactions were impulsive and excessive, but nobody died—until now.

No single 33-year-old raised entirely inside the kingdom can possibly possess the knowledge of the world his government needs, any more than such a person can combine in himself all the elements needed for sound decisions—including the ability to discern the occasions when morality itself must determine a government’s decisions. But MbS has brutally made it clear that contrary opinions are unwanted and indeed will be punished.

Contrast the governance situation in the United Arab Emirates. The UAE is no more democratic than the kingdom and its human rights record leaves plenty to be desired. But Abu Dhabi is ruled by a group of full brothers in what amounts to a collective leadership, not governed by one young man. Those brothers are able to confer and debate, and one can say to another “that’s the dumbest damn idea I’ve ever heard” perhaps even as impolitely as that. And because the UAE is a federation, there are several ruling families whose interests and opinions must be taken into account before important decisions are made.

This leads us back to “now what?” An instant decision to cut off all arms sales to the kingdom, being pushed now by many Democrats in Congress, would not be sensible. The main beneficiaries of weakening U.S.-Saudi defense ties would be the regime in Iran, which is the enemy of both Saudi Arabia and the United States, and those who would happily sell whatever arms we do not—China and Russia, for example. Similarly, weakening intelligence ties will hurt not only the Saudis but the United States and our allies in dealing with terrorism. Steps that harm the Saudi economy are equally senseless as reactions to the killing of Jamal Khashoggi.

Instead, the United States should be demanding the kinds of changes that will prevent any future incident like the Khashoggi killing. Such changes would themselves be a punishment for MbS because they would mean his brief period of absolute power is over. Saudi Arabia is and will remain for some time an “absolute monarchy” but that does not mean that all power must be concentrated in one individual with zero checks and balances. Over the last 65 years (since the death of the founder of modern Saudi Arabia, Ibn Saud, in 1953) that was not the Saudi system. The experiment with one-man rule by the crown prince has failed; along with Jamal Khashoggi it died in the Saudi consulate in Istanbul.


MbS is today crown prince, deputy prime minister (the king always has the additional title of prime minister), defense minister, head of the Council for Economic and Development Affairs, head of the Council on Security and Political Affairs, and more. That arrangement is unprecedented for Saudi Arabia and is alien to every other Arab monarchy. Patterns vary: In Jordan and Morocco commoners serve as prime minister and the king fires them whenever he sees the need; in Kuwait, Qatar, and Bahrain, other members of the royal family but not the emirs and crown princes serve as prime minster. In Saudi Arabia the concentration of all power in the hands of one young man has very quietly been debated, but now the debate should be over. Whatever MbS loses in his ability to force through beneficial changes must be given up now, because unrestrained, unlimited power has too often been used badly.

The replacement of MbS as crown prince is a separate matter of royal politics. If the king has lost confidence in MbS, which I doubt, he will choose another son for that post now. Or possibly there is enough rebelliousness in the wider House of Saud to demand that the king take that step, or even to push the king himself aside on grounds of ill health. It has happened before: King Saud was forced out in 1964 in a power struggle with his brothers. The United States should not engage in the royal succession sweepstakes but we should state that our interests require a Saudi government with which we can work.

This is not a call for a coup but for a combination of American pressure and reasoning with the king—whose views will be crucial—and with the crown prince himself. The king chose him above three older sons and wants him to succeed to the throne and keep it for decades. We must tell him that that won’t happen unless Saudi Arabia replaces whims and ukases with something that looks like a government. (The king may have reached that conclusion himself; we won’t know until we try.) Nor will the kingdom attract the investment that it desperately requires unless the rule of law replaces the crown prince’s fiat. We must tell both of them that even in the cold world of business and international politics, the vicious murder of a journalist can change the image of a nation and a prince overnight. We should clearly express our moral outrage. And then we should then harness it—not to abandon Saudi Arabia, but to insist that Saudi Arabia move further away from gruesome violence, and start to create a system of governance and law that can truly modernize the country and sustain the alliance with it that we have had since 1945.

Link




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Report This Post
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Or, I suspect in 30 days or so, this entire story will be forgotten as the perpetual news cycle moves forward with its next outrage piece. There's way too much money in play on both sides for anything tangible to occur in response to this barbarism. And barbarism has been a trademark of the Kingdom for as long as I can remember.


-----------------------------
Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter
 
Posts: 33845 | Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: April 30, 2006Report This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
Westerners tend to evaluate events by their own cultural norms, values, etc. So do other cultures.

These Arabs are not merely funny looking Westerners. Theirs is a completely different history, values, religion, social structure, philosophies, etc. We find those hard to understand.

A banker I dealt with on behalf of my Saudi clients asked me one day, “Are they wrong, or are we?”

I’m not sure that is the way to look at it.

However we may hope and pray that we eventually convert the rest of the world to our advanced sophisticated understandings and habits, we have quite a ways to go yet.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Report This Post
Nature is full of
magnificent creatures
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JALLEN:
Westerners tend to evaluate events by their own cultural norms, values, etc. So do other cultures.

These Arabs are not merely funny looking Westerners. Theirs is a completely different history, values, religion, social structure, philosophies, etc. We find those hard to understand.

A banker I dealt with on behalf of my Saudi clients asked me one day, “Are they wrong, or are we?”

I’m not sure that is the way to look at it.



This is very true. The traditions are very different. To relate in business, in diplomacy, or military alliances, one must first understand.

One of the first things I learned in a middle eastern studies course I took years ago was, if you ever find yourself visiting a Saudi prince or wealthy person in their palace or fancy home, do not tell them you admire something. They will feel obligated to give it to you. This may be an over simplication, but you might well find that $2 million painting in your hotel room the next morning. Great for fantasies, but a disaster for business and diplomatic relationships.
 
Posts: 6273 | Registered: March 24, 2008Report This Post
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Arab kills Arab. Yawn.
 
Posts: 17335 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: October 15, 2006Report This Post
Knows too little
about too much
Picture of rduckwor
posted Hide Post
https://www.americanpartisan.o...DhSnwkN3vgXxdccR5V6g

Far to long to C/P, but read it. Wasn't just a simple journalist trying to get a copy of his divorce decree. Appears he was running a number of sides against one another.

I realize this does not excuse the killing of a human being, but possibly sheds some more light on this topic.

RMD




TL Davis: “The Second Amendment is special, not because it protects guns, but because its violation signals a government with the intention to oppress its people…”
Remember: After the first one, the rest are free.
 
Posts: 20434 | Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama | Registered: April 06, 2008Report This Post
Too old to run,
too mean to quit!
posted Hide Post
I have to wonder just how high up in the Saudi gubbermint this issue goes.

Was the king involved in the decision? Or not?

Before people are lynched from light poles, how about some evidence, not simply on speculation.


Elk

There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour)

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. "
-Thomas Jefferson

"America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville

FBHO!!!



The Idaho Elk Hunter
 
Posts: 25656 | Location: Virginia | Registered: December 16, 2001Report This Post
I believe in the
principle of
Due Process
Picture of JALLEN
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Elk Hunter:
I have to wonder just how high up in the Saudi gubbermint this issue goes.

Was the king involved in the decision? Or not?

Before people are lynched from light poles, how about some evidence, not simply on speculation.


We will never know that for certain.

The boss had buffers, lots of buffers.




Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me.

When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson

"Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown
 
Posts: 48369 | Location: Texas hill country | Registered: July 04, 2005Report This Post
Drug Dealer
Picture of Jim Shugart
posted Hide Post
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Haaaa!




When a thing is funny, search it carefully for a hidden truth. - George Bernard Shaw
 
Posts: 15529 | Location: Virginia | Registered: July 03, 2007Report This Post
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This is a Saudi issue not ours, Democrats want to make this about Trump, it’s not. The United States doesn’t and shouldn’t dictate to Saudi Arabia how to run their country. If this was a U.s. Citizen we’d have more of a stake.
 
Posts: 2894 | Location: Boston, Mass | Registered: December 02, 2000Report This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Fredward:
Arab kills Arab. Yawn.


Which is exactly how the previous thread got locked:
https://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/3200005844

This was a good article Jim, thank you for posting.
 
Posts: 1172 | Registered: July 06, 2016Report This Post
The Ice Cream Man
posted Hide Post
A) He was a Saudi citizen, on Saudi soil, so its an internal matter.

B) Why he didn't just have an accident, is a bit bizarre.

C) If we really want to punish them, block all funding of NGOs, charities, etc by the Saudis in the US/EU.

Neither they, nor any other autocratic nation, will ever be a "friendly nation," to the US.
 
Posts: 6068 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Low Country, SC. | Registered: May 24, 2007Report This Post
goodheart
Picture of sjtill
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The Abrams article makes perfect sense to me: one-man rule can get things done in a hurry, but it is a fragile way of running things. Elliott Abrams worked at high foreign policy positions for the Reagan and GE Bush administrations, he’s not just a pundit or academic. He is advocating a middle road between turning against SA and turning the other cheek to Khashoggi’s murderers.


_________________________
“Remember, remember the fifth of November!"
 
Posts: 18654 | Location: One hop from Paradise | Registered: July 27, 2004Report This Post
Be not wise in
thine own eyes
Picture of kimber1911
posted Hide Post
Khashoggi was a legal permanent resident of the United States (green card holder) with his residence in the U.S., not a U.S. Citizen. He worked for an American company, the Washington Post.
Is that correct?

Just want to clarify my understanding of his relationship with the U.S.
After 5 years a green card holder can apply for Nationalized Citizenship.
Do we know how long he has been a legal permanent resident?

With his connection to the U.S. as a legal permanent resident he would have been able to purchase guns and class III items legally.



“We’re in a situation where we have put together, and you guys did it for our administration…President Obama’s administration before this. We have put together, I think, the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics,”
Pres. Select, Joe Biden

“Let’s go, Brandon” Kelli Stavast, 2 Oct. 2021
 
Posts: 5296 | Location: USA | Registered: December 05, 2004Report This Post
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