For several years, I have had liberals tell me how I should NEVER value my possessions over someone's life - ie let a robber take whatever he wants rather than shoot him. (I have even had a few of my conservative friends repeat the same logic). My response has always been that the robber is taking not only my possessions, but also my way of life - and I will not accept that.

Now, all of a sudden, the liberal mind thinks it is tragic that Russia wants to take over Ukraine, both possessions and way of life. They insist that we not only condone the killing of the Russian robbers, but also provide Ukraine with efficient weapons to aid the killing. My question for the democrats is why not tell Ukraine to just give Russia what it wants and not take human lives over mere possessions.

Am I being "obtuse" is assuming the moral values involved are the same for me as they are for a country?

(Note: I am personally in favor of providing material support to Ukraine, but not for any moral values involved. I just believe the price that Russia will pay for their invasion may dissuade them from a future attack on a NATO country, which would involve the lives of American servicemen.

I have no illusions that Ukraine will win because Russia will eventually grind them down since Russia can afford to trade dead soldier for dead soldier and all the physical destruction is limited to Ukranian assets. I hope I am wrong.)

People with no backbone or morals will always go with the flow, the politically correct, the trend

quote:

Am I being "obtuse" is assuming the moral values involved are the same for me as they are for a country?

I won't comment other than to say there's already a lengthy discussion of this topic:
https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...5/m/3270077884/p/140

It's the same moral values in play - specifically the absence thereof.

The left is bereft of moral values as we know them. It's all about enabling more power (social / political / economical) to the leaders of the left. Any morality observed is perceived only - propaganda for the idiot masses.

I have always believed that property is a portion of someone's life. For everything I acquire, I had to exchange a portion of my life in return. If you steal that property, I can never get back that portion of my life that I expended in acquiring that property. And you've enslaved me to trade away another portion of my life if I need or want to replace it.

^^^^^ This.

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Originally posted by Southern Rebel:
I have no illusions that Ukraine will win because Russia will eventually grind them down since Russia can afford to trade dead soldier for dead soldier and all the physical destruction is limited to Ukranian assets.

Russia would be able to afford trading soldier-for-soldier, but they're currently trading soldiers 8:1.

~100,000 dead Russian soldiers vs. ~13,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers.

Comparing overall numbers of those in the armed forces, Ukraine has ~700,000 vs. Russia's ~2 million. 2M vs. 700k isn't 8:1... Not even close. It's not even 3:1. And 100% of those Russians aren't in Ukraine, whereas 100% of the Ukrainians are.

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Originally posted by chellim1:

quote:

Am I being "obtuse" is assuming the moral values involved are the same for me as they are for a country?

I won't comment other than to say there's already a lengthy discussion of this topic:
https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...5/m/3270077884/p/140

Yes chellim1, I am well aware of that discussion and have followed it closely. I guess I am being a little more self-focused. Whether we should actually monetarily support Ukraine is not what I am asking about. I am more interested in how many of us are willing to take a human life to protect our own possessions. Is the question as simple as that or are we protecting something more valuable, but somewhat obscured because material possessions are also involved.

I suspect that even a liberal might draw the line if another individual wanted to take his house, his car, his bank account, etc. - but he would not draw the line if the other individual just wanted to take his $100 that he had in his wallet. I personally value human life, but justify defending my possessions with lethal force because in my own mind I am defending more than that possession. My question is am I rationalizing to make the end justify my means - or is my way of life (or yours) truly that valuable?

quote:

Originally posted by Southern Rebel:
For several years, I have had liberals tell me how I should NEVER value my possessions over someone's life - ie let a robber take whatever he wants rather than shoot him. (I have even had a few of my conservative friends repeat the same logic).

Not speaking to the Ukraine part but total pacifists have existed since the beginning of time.
It's their choice to be prey so they just have to accept the results.
I don't particularly agree with the theory that it's just "things" especially if they are threatening you with violence "or else" then has already escalated to a point of "you vs them".
But I understand not wanted to hurt someone as pretty sure we all are in that frame of mind but that also includes getting hurt - doesn't it?
Back to "you vs them" again.

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
I have always believed that property is a portion of someone's life. For everything I acquire, I had to exchange a portion of my life in return. If you steal that property, I can never get back that portion of my life that I expended in acquiring that property. And you've enslaved me to trade away another portion of my life if I need or want to replace it.

Very well said.

"Russia would be able to afford trading soldier-for-soldier, but they're currently trading soldiers 8:1.

~100,000 dead Russian soldiers vs. ~13,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers."

That would depend on who's propaganda you are believing

quote:

Originally posted by Rey HRH:
I have always believed that property is a portion of someone's life. For everything I acquire, I had to exchange a portion of my life in return. If you steal that property, I can never get back that portion of my life that I expended in acquiring that property. And you've enslaved me to trade away another portion of my life if I need or want to replace it.

Thank you for typing that out for us/me. You get it. You break into my car, truck, steal one of my bikes, break into my house stealing X, whatever it is, I cannot put a fucking value on what time and effort to obtain said property. Blood sweat and tears. Nothing was given to me, zero help from anyone. All self earned. The time and effort expended to gain or buy X means one million more times than whatever X is worth. That’s what I would be defending, with my own life, if need be.

And what they and most never will understand is the got damn SACRIFICES you had to make for whatever it is. I can tell you I gave up dining out, a modern convenience and luxury, to buy my motorcycles. I gave up vacations and lifestyle choices for them too, as well as other property I own. There is no price in this world I can put on the sacrifices I’ve made. And those were not required for some things but were required for other things, such as my own home. That sacrifice is worth millions of dollars I don’t have, and countless years I cannot get back. So that property is worth 1,000,000 times more than its worth to me via my own sacrifices to get it so if you try to take it and I’m going to fight for a million times over. So good luck buddy.

People, even today, that I’m friends with cannot understand people living life differently than them. A car is just a car, or truck. No big deal. Meanwhile if my vehicle was taken “Oh you have insurance, does it matter that much?” But if they had to give up dining out for a few months it would drive them literally insane as I saw during the pandemic. Different things matter differently per individual. Blanket this and that does not define it. Some people work their asses to the bone to be able to afford something and it may have taken them 50, 60 years of hard work to be in a position to afford it. I remember being young and a friend saw a new Vette and said “Fucking rich asshole” and I responded “How do you know that guy didn’t work at the GM Plant for 40 got damn years to be able to afford that thing? STFU!”

Someone who attempts to steal something from me, particularly when it is on my property/body, then they clearly value my property more than they value their own life. I will protect and defend what is mine, that includes my family and those things I deem worthy of defending.

Transposing this basic concept to a geo-political conflict, I think is an over-simplificiation. I get what the OP is saying however, the easy comeback to the Lefties is if they've taken-in any 'homeless', do their children go to public schools or, do they pay more on their taxes.