What’s the lifespan of an EV battery?


Cause my old F150 lived 13 years before I sold it for someone else to drive...change the oil change the tires, and every four years change the battery

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
What’s the lifespan of an EV battery?


Cause my old F150 lived 13 years before I sold it for someone else to drive...change the oil change the tires, and every four years change the battery

Most of the EV batteries are guaranteed for 100,000 miles. That is rapidly changing so it's kind of a hard number to put in your head. There is just so much development money being poured into the EV market that the technology is advancing so rapidly that what is true tomorrow won't be in 6 months.

As an example Tesla is already working on a million mile battery.

If the technology exists and performs as promised why are all taxpayers still paying big subsidies to every segment of the industry?

The next tax subsidy will probably come along in 3 or 4 years, when the current heavily-subsidized electric vehicles need replacement batteries (about the cost of another vehicle) and the old batteries have to be disposed of in an environmentally friendly way.

quote:

Originally posted by LoboGunLeather:
If the technology exists and performs as promised why are all taxpayers still paying big subsidies to every segment of the industry?

The next tax subsidy will probably come along in 3 or 4 years, when the current heavily-subsidized electric vehicles need replacement batteries (about the cost of another vehicle) and the old batteries have to be disposed of in an environmentally friendly way.

I tend to agree with the free market idea but we don't have that with the petroleum industry and we have been using oil for how long now?

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
What’s the lifespan of an EV battery?


Cause my old F150 lived 13 years before I sold it for someone else to drive...change the oil change the tires, and every four years change the battery

My Tesla warranty is 8/120k. I’d have to check but I think in CA the warranty is 8/180k

It’s not uncommon to see original battery packs with over 300k miles

Life is dependent on how they are charged. They degrade quickly if always charged with high Amp supercharger and to 100%. Recommended is 80-90% for daily use

Lithium battery recycling is in its infancy now, but I think that tech will develope rapidly.

A couple of companies have solid state battery proof of concepts now. Initial testing appears very positive, but we're a long ways off from commercialization.

EVs are an inefficient way to get around, from an energy viewpoint. ICEs are not real efficient, but there is only heat engine to mechanical movement losses.

The losses for EVs are as follows; burning fuels to heat water to steam, steam turbines, mechanical movement to electricity, stepped up through transformers to 345kv for transmission, transmission line losses, step down transformers to distribution voltages, distribution line losses, step down transformers to neighborhood lines, charging batteries, discharging batteries to mechanical movement.

As for manufacturing, lithium mining is polluting, probably worse than coal. Lithium refining is polluting, probably worse than oil refining. Lithium battery manufacturing is polluting. As of this moment, there is no lithium battery recycling that I know of, so more polluting.

We don’t have the generating infrastructure to power massive numbers of EVs, as coal and nuclear plants are being shutdown, and new ones aren’t being built. We don’t have transmission, distribution, or neighborhood electric systems to support a massive increase in EVs. Most utilities are struggling to maintain the generating and T&D infrastructure they have now. Who is going to raise the utilities’ rates to finance all that? Not by a few percent, more like 30+%. And don’t forget the charging stations that will have to be placed at every gas station, at a minimum. Who is going to finance all of those?

It isn’t undoable, but it would be a massive project if adults were in charge, and we have dementia Joe and his side squeeze Kamala.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
What’s the lifespan of an EV battery?


Cause my old F150 lived 13 years before I sold it for someone else to drive...change the oil change the tires, and every four years change the battery

I’m at 7 years (well 6 years and 10 months) on or in my EV toaster. I’ve lost some range but nothing significant. 10%, I’d have to check but that is close. It will easily make it 10 years at which point I’m hoping there is a battery swap for more range. If not I may drive it until it won’t go anymore. I imagine that will be minimum 15 years. Most people I know are buying a new car every 2, 3, 4, or 5 years and I’m already a few years past that so listening to them drone on about the thing is laughable.

The only maintenance has been in cabin air filters, a 12v battery swap (same as ICE, 5 years), and I just flushed the brake fluid out last year and replaced it. I make my own power so the car is fueled by the sun. So my savings vs. gas are just increasing every day. Car cost me $19.5k all in and I have 3 years left on the factory bumper to bumper warranty. It’s been the best car I have ever owned and a perfect commuter vehicle. Purchase price was low, reliability has been five 9’s, and I basically fuel it for free.
It being the donkey means the truck I bought last year will easily make it 20 years or more.

Sum zero game.

Don't particularly care that much. The thing I care about is wasted money and mandates. They eventually will take over the market, that I have no doubt of. The amount of wasted money to move that timeline from 2040 to 2035 is ridiculous. The free markets would have done it eventually.

The government subsidizing it is a complete waste of money. Billions and billions of dollars - $1.5B for each manufacturer, 200k units at $7,500 each. Then there are charging station subsidies. $1k for residential, $30k for commercial charging stations, I don't even know how to calculate that cost.

All that money to move up the timeline on EV cars is insane. If it actually did cut pollution it would be a cost worth considering. Currently all estimates of carbon produced in the manufacturing plus use of the vehicles is either a slight reduction or a slight increase in carbon. No business would make that decision, their shareholders would revolt and have the board fired. Which is what the shareholders of the country should do, yet every time we go to the ballots we reward this behavior for some reason.

Another consideration often left out of the discussion is the ingredients for the batteries. How much of those can be produced domestically? We have an abundance of cheap electricity under our country. Coal, LP, natural gas, and oil are all plentiful. Instead of using our cheaper resources we have now and we are going to enrich other countries for the resources used in batteries. Also what are the impacts of the mining of these ingredients? The production of the batteries takes a lot of water as well as produced and uses some very nasty chemicals. Why haven't we invested equally in the recycling of these batteries? These batteries total environmental impact should be considered as well.

Other than the cost of it, I don't really care where my horsepower comes from I just want more horsepower.

I was buying a SUV a while back from a salesman friend and a man was trying to trade in an electric vehicle with medium usage.. NOT !! Guy was mad because it's worth nothing used. A new set of batteries cost way than it's worth. They would have changed him many thousands if he insisted that they take it.

I think EV are the next scam about like Ethenol !!! It's government backed BS !!!

It will be interesting to see how EVs make out in Norway. Their government has mandated that no ICE cars will be permitted after 2025, just four years away. The EV share was over 50% in 2020.

The Norweigans have a "great" model for incentives. Instead of giving a tax break for an EV purchase, they just massively increase taxes on ICE vehicles. Whammo, now EVs are cheaper.

https://electrek.co/2021/01/07...t-share-norway-2020/

Tesla has a huge giga factory near Reno to produce batteries. The scale of this place is mind-boggling. And no, Reno is not in China.

quote:

Originally posted by cne32507:
Tesla has a huge giga factory near Reno to produce batteries. The scale of this place is mind-boggling. And no, Reno is not in China.

Giga Texas is rumored to have battery manufacturing area also

quote:

Originally posted by cne32507:
Tesla has a huge giga factory near Reno to produce batteries. The scale of this place is mind-boggling. And no, Reno is not in China.

Yes, the manufacturing is done in Reno, but a lot of the ingredients come from China.

California was competing for the giga factory, offered massive subsidies and other incentives, Musk decided that the CA gov't hindrances were too burdensome, he chose Nevada. (Curious, Elon Musk and some of the Tesla HQ is moving to TX to get away from CA)

Using Norway as a model for the US is insane. Norway isn’t even as big as California. Americans have a long history and pride in the ability to get in your car and explore. 10 states in 10 days kind of things. Norwegians, Europeans in general don’t migrate around the continent like Americans do. It’s a bad country to model after.

EV works in cities. Only if you never drive anywhere far. They are great second cars. They aren’t saving the planet. They are costing the taxpayer a fortune. And if one more guy tells me that they will just rent a vehicle to drive on their vacation leaving from their own home I’m going to puke. Who actually does this? Seriously.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
What’s the lifespan of an EV battery?

Well there’s the lifespan in the vehicle, which is impacted by many factors, fast charging being particularly hard on the batteries. Truth is, over their lifespan, capacity diminishes as your cell phone would. When they fall much below 80%, range is sufficiently impacted as to be considered depleted by most owners for their intended purpose. So, when buying an EV, the language of the battery warranty is a key element to the purchase. Battery replacement can easily exceed $7k, so don’t necessarily expect them to roll over when your 200 mile optimal range has decreased to 120.

Depleted batteries removed from EVs remain theoretically useful in alternate applications, but compatibility/adaptability becomes the hurdle.

The scary thing is Biden allowing China access to our power grid. Now imagine when we are way more reliant on one energy type.

https://disrn.com/news/biden-r...in-us-power-grid/amp

quote:

Originally posted by 1s1k:
Very few people who have owned an EV ever want to go back to ICE unless they have a specific need that electric won't meet.

I would like to see some numbers that back this assertion. I certainly know some folks who’ve abandoned their EVs for range, convenience, and reliability reasons. I would also assert there is a hardcore virtue signaling early adopter demo that will never revert, but the car buying public at large is fickle and convenience is a large obstacle for EVs in their minds. Carmax has 55k vehicles on their website currently, and only slightly more than 200 are EVs. They carried Tesla briefly in CA as a test several years ago, but abandoned the test and do not offer them at all currently. That doesn’t seem to bode well for demand at least in the used market.

Interesting thread. The politically correct theme is that electric cars are the wave of the (progressive/enlightened) future.

All in all, it seems to me, with current technology, that electric vehicles are not as energy efficient as fossil fueled cars, when considering the manufacturing, operation, disposal. Also, when considering manufacturing, operation, disposal, electric vehicles are more harmful to the environment. So electric cars produce the opposite of the enlightened, politically correct promise.

Another factor to consider is energy storage. Seems it is quite a bit more economic/versatile to store energy in fossil fuel form than it is to store electrical energy.

Suppose in a decade all vehicles in Norway are electric. And there is some sort of a glitch in the power grid, which could come from a variety of sources (political, economic, calamity-natural or man made). How ready will they be to switch to Plan B, or have society shut down?