quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
The "broken" part of that, is that Stoicism is not about refusing to feel emotions.

It is about refusing to have your actions/reason swayed by them.

Refusing to feel emotions, will mentally break someone.

It’s not refusing to feel/embrace or understand emotions but rather seeking to ensure you have control over those emotions you know can mislead, infuriate & intoxicate you.

It is an incredibly difficult thing to achieve but it offers more value than anything progressivism seeks to offer humanity.

These are a few quotes that ultimately changed how I engage others in a political debate and altered the way I deal with difficult people or frustrating situations.

If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.

If someone tried to take control of your body and make you a slave, you would fight for freedom
Yet how easily you hand over your mind to anyone who insults you.
When you dwell on their words and let them dominate your thoughts, you make them your master.
- Epictetus

Of all the stoic philosophers and their quotes on how to live this is one of my favorites. It speaks to our legacy and the relationship we should strive to have with others. When I look at this and compare it to the champions of progressivism I see quite a stark contrast.

Happy is the man who can make others better, not merely when he is in their company, but even when he is in their thoughts
-Seneca

quote:

Originally posted by stickman428:
These are a few quotes that ultimately changed how I engage others in a political debate and altered the way I deal with difficult people or frustrating situations.

Thank you for those. I should print them off to have them available to remind me on occasion.

This discussion and other exposures I’ve had to Stoic philosophy have given me things to think about in my own life. Some things definitely are hard, and I’m convinced that the hardest ones for me are due to how evolution has formed us humans to want to influence others and in turn our susceptibility to being influenced by others because what they think of us is a reflection of our influence on them.

The things that are usually thought of when “insults” are mentioned seldom matter to me:
“You’re ugly.” Yes, I am.
“You procrastinate and avoid doing things you don’t like.” Yes, I do.
“You’re stupid.” No, I’m not.

But I am very (overly?) sensitive to unjust criticisms of my work, and that extends to ignorant or malicious challenges to the things I know that are verifiable fact, not opinion or suppositions. Sometimes responding to such challenges is important for objective reasons, but very often, especially at this stage of my life, it isn’t and I allow others to control my mind by responding when it isn’t important.

Stoicism certainly exhorts us to control ourselves and not simply react to stimuli and emotion.

Some also say that stoics seek to accept what they cannot change, but this would not mean stoics have to be passive in the world. Where action can make change, stoics would go forward, providing the action we decide to take is not a choice solely driven by reaction to emotion.

I don't think it is fair to say stoicism and progressivism are opposites. They are really different - it is not an apples and apples kind of comparison. I think it is probably true that in the real world many progressives (I prefer leftists as a term) are NOT stoics at all and do react to emotion without consideration.

I am not sure the two are inherently contrary to each other.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jhe888,

I believe Dale Carnegie might have been a stoic. His oft-repeated quote suggests we accept the worst that can happen and then seek to change it.

I think that trying to change it first, without acceptance, leads to struggle without meaning.

You might be interested in a recent JRE interview with Ryan Holiday.

quote:

Ryan Holiday is a writer, media strategist, and author of multiple books, including "Lives of the Stoics: The Art of Living from Zeno to Marcus Aurelius," Stillness is the Key," and "Trust Me, I'm Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator." He's the host of "The Daily Stoic" podcast.

They talked for awhile about Marcus Aurelius, and by extension, the movie Gladiator. Sounds like the real Commodus was much worse than the character played by Joaquin Phoenix. Interesting guy, Holiday

quote:

Originally posted by TMats:
You might be interested in a recent JRE interview with Ryan Holiday.

quote:

Ryan Holiday is a writer, media strategist, and author of multiple books, including "Lives of the Stoics: The Art of Living from Zeno to Marcus Aurelius," Stillness is the Key," and "Trust Me, I'm Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator." He's the host of "The Daily Stoic" podcast.

They talked for awhile about Marcus Aurelius, and by extension, the movie Gladiator. Sounds like the real Commodus was much worse than the character played by Joaquin Phoenix. Interesting guy, Holiday

Great recommendation! I watched what I assume is a small excerpt (15 minutes long) of it on YouTube tonight. Now want to figure out how long that discussion was and watch the whole thing.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
The things that are usually thought of when “insults” are mentioned

You're on track here. Here's a Stoic take on that kind of thing:

quote:

“If anyone tells you that a certain person speaks ill of you, do not make excuses about what is said of you but answer, "He was ignorant of my other faults, else he would not have mentioned these alone.”
― Epictetus

RE: accepting factually-incorrect statements. They had no issues (and no trouble) using logic to take apart faulty arguments. They just tried not to get upset doing it.

quote:

Originally posted by joel9507:

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
The things that are usually thought of when “insults” are mentioned

You're on track here. Here's a Stoic take on that kind of thing:

quote:

“If anyone tells you that a certain person speaks ill of you, do not make excuses about what is said of you but answer, "He was ignorant of my other faults, else he would not have mentioned these alone.”
― Epictetus

RE: accepting factually-incorrect statements. They had no issues (and no trouble) using logic to take apart faulty arguments. They just tried not to get upset doing it.

“Choose not to be harmed — and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed — and you haven’t been.” – Marcus Aurelius

I've been reading a lot of stoic philosophy. It's really helped me get through some hard parts of life that I've encountered lately.

I only read the thread title.

Yes.

I’ve learned a great deal from the stoics. I’m doing my best to live up to their ideals.

I have a way to go.

quote:

Originally posted by sigalert:


Yes.

I’ve learned a great deal from the stoics. I’m doing my best to live up to their ideals.

I have a way to go.

Indeed. I try my best to live up to the teachings of stoicism. Some days are more successful than others but I have noticed stoicism has helped me to alter how I perceive information. World news that once would have distressed or bothered me seems to have much less of an impact now.

Along with stoicism lectures I have been listening to hours of Jordan Peterson lectures on psychology and I have noticed a big change in how I interact with my friends and family during political arguments/debates.

I still have a long way to go but on a positive note I have noticed a tremendous change in my relationship with my brother. We used to argue over politics weekly. Thinking about it now, I cannot remember the last political argument we had. We have had many political discussions but none of them have gotten heated or ever approached any level of hostility which is a big change from previous conversation we had.

I recently saw a YouTube short that was quite interesting. It was Jocko Willink talking about when things happen that seem bad or good he likes to try to look at it from a much less judgmental perspective.

For example if some minor or major set back at work occurs it seems logical to view such a thing as bad. Jocko said he tries to say to himself is this good or bad? Well I don’t know then list off why it could be either good or bad and move on. Sort of the internal vs external argument from the stoics. It’s neat how you see the overlap in behavior from very successful people.

Stoicism and making a true effort to embrace the philosophy does begin to really alter the way you think. Even in this thread I go back now and read my previous posts and realize I would word them differently today.

There is one quote from Marcus I believe that I think is quite good. It goes something like:

“seek to be the kind of person who brings joy to those around you both when you are in their company and when you are in their thoughts.”

Is stoicism the antithesis of progressivism?

No. Stoicism is not unfeeling, and progressivism has long since been hijacked by activists. That's how bad it is in 2023, but just like "libertarian," progressive is swallowed up. Activist leftist shitbags have ruined it for anyone who is a remotely moderate democrat. Where are the outspoken moderate democrats? Hiding like they're closeted gays, lest they be subject to a purity test and purged.

IF stoicism is an antithesis of 2023 progressivism, it is because it encourages thoughtful tolerance.

I disagree. There is another component to the stoicism and progressivism appear to odds with each other. The mindset each creates.

The quality of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts. This is a belief very much embraced by stoic philosophers. It is something that is true and can easily be proven to have value. If progressives realized the power of the mind they wouldn’t immerse it toxic pollution so much.

When you look at the thoughts of Stoics and the things they claim lead to a good life such as being content with little, the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint, and most importantly that your mind determines your perceptions and your mind can be trained.

That doesn’t mesh with progressivism at all. Especially the complaining part whilst enduring hardships! Look at progressives actions and the endless search for problems. The eternal focus on the external if you will. Do their actions benefit their lives? It sure seems to make them happy eh? Does their fixation on external problems not leave the internal problems in their life on the back burner?

And another thing to ponder.

Consider I called you a fucking asshole arcwelder (hypothetically speaking of course)

Stoicism teaches us that : imagine the pain of insults and realize that he who has insulted you has only done harm to himself.

Now compare that to progressivism. How would a progressive react?

I think you are confusing the way that many modern progressives act with progressive thought, per se.

I still don't think progressivism is inherently a conflict with stoicism.

However, almost no people who call themselves progressives are not stoics. They could be, but in the current moment, they are not.

I think the current crop of progressives would lose their dooodoo, grab their bullhorns, and start screaming at you.

Hardly stoic.

I find myself to be a new student of stoicism. While I have found the Bible to be a good guidebook for life, Stoicism offers more specifics.
I also have, for some time, appreciated something well said, especially if it can be brief.
A simple example that I have followed was from Jethro Gibbs, of the NCIS show - I learned it in the Navy, but have never heard it said better - “If you’re not early, you’re late”.

Another that I like is from Lao Tzu - “If you realize that all things change, there is nothing that you will try to hold on to, if you are not afraid of dying, there is nothing you cannot achieve”.
In my case I have collected “stuff” -tools, guns, toys, motorcycles, hardware, antiques, etc. etc. all my life. In my advancing age it is easy now to see I am just a caretaker for the next owner. So when I see a potential new home for some of this stuff - it is easier to let it go. In a sense I have been waiting for this day to come, to pass it on. Am I going to give it all away? Well, maybe not right now.

As for reading suggestions, I have read some of Marcus Aurelius and some of Seneca (the younger). If you are new to stoicism I would suggest that Seneca is a bit easier reading.

I suppose Stoicism may not have conflicted with Socialism, at one time, but now that Socialism is a completely disproven model, it is.

The Socialist has rejected his ability to reason.

Stoicism emphasizes rational thought and action above all else. (As a Christian Stoic, prioritizing faith and the Divine, is the most rational action, given the superiority of the Creator)