quote:Originally posted by YooperSigs:
One last observation about fire lanes:
I was concerned about keeping them open for an emergency and would ticket offenders. Until there was a small fire in the back of a business in one of my strip malls. The responding pumper arrived and the crew found the fire lane blocked by an illegally parked car.
The pumper was then used to push the car out of the fire lane. To say the least, the bumpers did not exactly match. Seeing this going on, I decided that the situation was well in hand and there were other pressing matters that needed my attention.
Discretion is often the better part of valor.
quote:Originally posted by 911Boss:
I understand the circumstances and I personally have no problem with it, however it is a public perception issue and when officers or departments are tone deaf on the minor things it can create easily avoided bad PR and lead to major things.
In some cases the “little” violations are how it starts. Explained away by “I am a cop”, “I am on duty”, “this will just take a minute”, etc. Then for some it grows, driving 5 over on the way home after shift becomes 10 or 15 over, then tailgating, improper lane travel, passing in no pass zone, using the carpool lane for commuting in the take home car (legal, but ethical?), etc. In most cases with justification and explanation to excuse or try and legitimize the behavior.
All the same things the average citizen gets stopped for, ticketed for, and pays $1000 or more for between time off work, fines, and increased insurance cost. You see why some get so pissed about it?
It is a slippery slope, and some (thankfully a very small number) end up at the bottom pimping out their ex-wife, using NCIC and DOL records checks to screen her customers, taking and selling illegal drugs, using Department funds for personal purchases, and a host of other illegal acts because they thought they were above the law. Exaggeration? Not at all, one of the local officers did all that and more a couple years back (Deputy Pimp daddy) .
Think of it this way, that guy was voicing his opinion on you because you and your relatively minor infraction, at that time, were available and represented to him the behavior of a lot of your breathren who he hasn’t been able to confront or challenge. The badge stands for all, all stand for the badge.
Can I call out the cop tailgating me or driving 15 over in a marked City of XXX police car with no emergency equip. activated, heading away from that city in the next county? Nope, no face to face opportunity. Sure, some will call to complain, but most don’t because it is assumed nothing will happen and that when it comes to following traffic stuff like the rest of us have to, cops are above the laws they have been sworn to enforce.
When people see this time and time again, it grates on them and they remember. It builds over time and at some point some poor guy just trying to get through another shift takes 100% of the fallout for officers questionable actions when he might only have been personally responsible for 2% of it.
No one with half a brain would question you stopping at a store before, after, or even during your shift. Given all the reports of restaurants tampering with police food, I wouldn’t fault anyone for brown bagging it. Just like any other job, cops get meal and coffee breaks. Unfortunately your legit excuse for doing some light grocery shopping sustains the parking violation. You were “on duty”, but not on “official business”.
“On duty” but not on a call at the store doesn’t sound like a reason to park in a fire lane and gives legitimate concern. Probably no exception in whatever your firelane laws are for it either (all the WA emergency vehicle exceptions tend to have a restriction connecting to official business or while responding).
The two combined behaviors reasonably give the perception of a “rules don’t apply to me” attitude to someone who has probably several other examples of it. If you aren’t there on “official business” people are going to question it and some might call an officer out for it. Parked in a parking spot shopping, guy probably wouldn’t have said a word. In the fire lane, at the counter talking to the clerk about a call or PD “business” without groceries, probably wouldn’t have said a word.
You wrote a LOT justifying why you felt it was ok, very little to none on what potential benefit or gain doing so provides. The assumption is a faster response to a high priority call. If a call came out that warranted a dump and run response, would the extra 6 seconds of running to a parking space really make any difference?
(Side note- have you or your Dept had any exposure to “Below 100”? campaign to reduce officer injuries and officers injuring others while responding to calls. Basically shows how a better reasoned, if fractionally slower, response vs. a “gotta get there NOW” reaction/mentality leads to better outcomes. Very good stuff...)
I don’t know you, I don’t think anyone would question my support or commitment to cops, and this isn’t personal. I don’t for a minute think you are out to “take advantage” of the badge. Consider this though, using a low-likelihood scenario potential (aka “what if...”) to justify or excuse unlawful or unethical behavior in most cases is essentially an admission that the behavior was wrong while trying to avoid the responsibility or consequences of the behavior.
One of our Dept mantras is “We do the right thing”. It really is a mindset, keep in mind that wearing the uniform and driving the rolling billboard, to John Q Public, EVERYTHING you do reflects not just on you but on your department and every other cop out there.
Bottom line, for the Department I work for, that would be a no-no. In our Department, accepting the discount, even such a small one, offered by the store would be an ethics violation and get someone in legitimate hot water far more than any traffic infraction faux pas ever would.
Edit to add...quote:
It was really equal distance from the closest actual parking space.
So really no benefit whatsoever achieved? Sorry, this hurts your argument more than it helps.quote:
As I stated earlier the managers of the business REQUESTED we park our cars there as a deterrent for potential shenanigans.
If I get the ok from a business to park in a disabled spot is it ok?quote:
We do so as a favor to the business...
I don’t know about your area, but in mine this coupled with a discount would present a liability concern over preferential treatment, conflict of interest, ethics, etc.
That’s not on you as you have come into this culture, but at some point don’t be surprised if such “favors” don’t come back to bite your dept in the ass at some point.quote:
It is much easier to deter crime, than it is to deal with crime after the fact.
Agreed, also much easier to avoid compliants of misconduct than to deal with them after the fact.
That has to be a record for "mother of all long assed qoute".quote:Originally posted by KevinCW:quote:Originally posted by 911Boss:
I understand the circumstances and I personally have no problem with it, however it is a public perception issue and when officers or departments are tone deaf on the minor things it can create easily avoided bad PR and lead to major things.
In some cases the “little” violations are how it starts. Explained away by “I am a cop”, “I am on duty”, “this will just take a minute”, etc. Then for some it grows, driving 5 over on the way home after shift becomes 10 or 15 over, then tailgating, improper lane travel, passing in no pass zone, using the carpool lane for commuting in the take home car (legal, but ethical?), etc. In most cases with justification and explanation to excuse or try and legitimize the behavior.
All the same things the average citizen gets stopped for, ticketed for, and pays $1000 or more for between time off work, fines, and increased insurance cost. You see why some get so pissed about it?
It is a slippery slope, and some (thankfully a very small number) end up at the bottom pimping out their ex-wife, using NCIC and DOL records checks to screen her customers, taking and selling illegal drugs, using Department funds for personal purchases, and a host of other illegal acts because they thought they were above the law. Exaggeration? Not at all, one of the local officers did all that and more a couple years back (Deputy Pimp daddy) .
Think of it this way, that guy was voicing his opinion on you because you and your relatively minor infraction, at that time, were available and represented to him the behavior of a lot of your breathren who he hasn’t been able to confront or challenge. The badge stands for all, all stand for the badge.
Can I call out the cop tailgating me or driving 15 over in a marked City of XXX police car with no emergency equip. activated, heading away from that city in the next county? Nope, no face to face opportunity. Sure, some will call to complain, but most don’t because it is assumed nothing will happen and that when it comes to following traffic stuff like the rest of us have to, cops are above the laws they have been sworn to enforce.
When people see this time and time again, it grates on them and they remember. It builds over time and at some point some poor guy just trying to get through another shift takes 100% of the fallout for officers questionable actions when he might only have been personally responsible for 2% of it.
No one with half a brain would question you stopping at a store before, after, or even during your shift. Given all the reports of restaurants tampering with police food, I wouldn’t fault anyone for brown bagging it. Just like any other job, cops get meal and coffee breaks. Unfortunately your legit excuse for doing some light grocery shopping sustains the parking violation. You were “on duty”, but not on “official business”.
“On duty” but not on a call at the store doesn’t sound like a reason to park in a fire lane and gives legitimate concern. Probably no exception in whatever your firelane laws are for it either (all the WA emergency vehicle exceptions tend to have a restriction connecting to official business or while responding).
The two combined behaviors reasonably give the perception of a “rules don’t apply to me” attitude to someone who has probably several other examples of it. If you aren’t there on “official business” people are going to question it and some might call an officer out for it. Parked in a parking spot shopping, guy probably wouldn’t have said a word. In the fire lane, at the counter talking to the clerk about a call or PD “business” without groceries, probably wouldn’t have said a word.
You wrote a LOT justifying why you felt it was ok, very little to none on what potential benefit or gain doing so provides. The assumption is a faster response to a high priority call. If a call came out that warranted a dump and run response, would the extra 6 seconds of running to a parking space really make any difference?
(Side note- have you or your Dept had any exposure to “Below 100”? campaign to reduce officer injuries and officers injuring others while responding to calls. Basically shows how a better reasoned, if fractionally slower, response vs. a “gotta get there NOW” reaction/mentality leads to better outcomes. Very good stuff...)
I don’t know you, I don’t think anyone would question my support or commitment to cops, and this isn’t personal. I don’t for a minute think you are out to “take advantage” of the badge. Consider this though, using a low-likelihood scenario potential (aka “what if...”) to justify or excuse unlawful or unethical behavior in most cases is essentially an admission that the behavior was wrong while trying to avoid the responsibility or consequences of the behavior.
One of our Dept mantras is “We do the right thing”. It really is a mindset, keep in mind that wearing the uniform and driving the rolling billboard, to John Q Public, EVERYTHING you do reflects not just on you but on your department and every other cop out there.
Bottom line, for the Department I work for, that would be a no-no. In our Department, accepting the discount, even such a small one, offered by the store would be an ethics violation and get someone in legitimate hot water far more than any traffic infraction faux pas ever would.
Edit to add...quote:
It was really equal distance from the closest actual parking space.
So really no benefit whatsoever achieved? Sorry, this hurts your argument more than it helps.quote:
As I stated earlier the managers of the business REQUESTED we park our cars there as a deterrent for potential shenanigans.
If I get the ok from a business to park in a disabled spot is it ok?quote:
We do so as a favor to the business...
I don’t know about your area, but in mine this coupled with a discount would present a liability concern over preferential treatment, conflict of interest, ethics, etc.
That’s not on you as you have come into this culture, but at some point don’t be surprised if such “favors” don’t come back to bite your dept in the ass at some point.quote:
It is much easier to deter crime, than it is to deal with crime after the fact.
Agreed, also much easier to avoid compliants of misconduct than to deal with them after the fact.
I was gonna let sleeping dogs lie, and leave it at that maybe I was also a dick here... and still, maybe I was.
But....
1. This was far cry from any of the violations you listed. I understand your point, but this isn't NEARLY what we are talking about. If i ever did such things you speak of, I'd expect you guys to crucify me, and would even provide the nails.
2. Second, I did't post this as "justification" but more as my thought process. After reading the responses, maybe my thought process was wrong. I"m still unsure... But my intentions WERE noble. I didn't park where I did for my own gain... I did so for everyone else's gain. Both for a faster response as you said, and the other reason, because that is what the business requests. They have literally asked us to park as such. They want anyone with nefarious intent to see there is a squad car parked in front, and as such, choose a different target.
If the business disagrees (and since the night manager has specifically asked me to do so, I doubt they will) I will happily park elsewhere.
Your points regarding the perception are certainly valid. I understand them and don't disagree. MY point however, is that this guy did not know about my conversation with the manager, or store owner, or my shift hours, or any small amount of our procedures... yet he acted...
MY point.... Is i would have been more than willing to have a polite discussion with the man. After all, I didn't go up to him and read him the riot act.... I'd listen to his concerns. Maybe he could have professionally raised his concerns and I could have made a counterpoint to him as we are doing so here... but he chose differently.
He decided to start cursing. He decided to start engaging someone who was minding his own business. He chose to be a sourpuss.
If someone has a difference of opinion, and wants to discuss it, provided I have time, i'm all ears provided they can be respectful and have honest debate.... He demonstrated he was unable or unwilling to do so...
Whatever floats his boat. I hope he feels better.... honestly...
I do....
Thank you all for your feedback.
quote:Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:
Be a dick to a police officer.
Guy is a genius.
quote:Originally posted by chongosuerte:
In my state, others can park in the fire lane for loading/unloading: "Provided, however, persons loading or unloading supplies or merchandise may park temporarily in a fire lane located in a shopping center or mall parking lot as long as the vehicle is not left unattended."
quote:Originally posted by slosig:
There is a great picture somewhere floating around the Internet of a BMW (3 series I think) that parked in front of a fire plug. One window is smashed on each side of the car and the firehose is draped through the car. Kinda makes a guy hope the hose leaked a bit. Seems like a perfect solution. May be the last time that individual parked in front of a hydrant.