quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:
the more I think about it, he really did look too young to be a Vietname vet... If the war ended in '75, that was 42 years ago. Seeing as he would have had to be at least 18 to enter the service, even if he served on the very last day of the war he would have to be 60 years old at the youngest....

He didn't look much older than 50, but looks are deceiving and honestly, I didn't pay him much attention until he was walking away...

"Shucks, m'am. I ain't no cowboy. I just found this hat."

I commend to your attention the advice of Ben Franklin when confronted with criticism. Examine it carefully. If it is justified, amend your ways. If not, ignore it.

Thank you for all you do and your service Kevin.

James in Denver

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:
"Perception is reality." Something to think about.

It might offend you but my perception from reading this thread.

1. You stayed on the clock to gain extra overtime pay on your way home from work and further extended the overtime pay by stopping to shop.

2. You parked in a "Fire Lane" while shopping.

3. Your protesting and offensive stance you have taken in this thread leads me to believe the Veteran's perception of you may have had some validity.

In regards to long hours at work many of us do and have done that, Police are not special in this regard.

Expect your conduct as a Police officer to be critiqued more than most professions.
Hold your head high as an Officer, but always consider how seemingly minor issues such as parking in the fire lane may be viewed by the public.

I'm sorry, you are incorrect.

I logged on 15 mins early, and was cleared to log off 15 mins early. I stayed on voluntarily while I was in the store on my own time (as in not being paid). Second, we are never "off duty" but I wasn't being paid. I didn't have to do that. I did so in case something serious happened I could go to the aid of my fellow officers. I'm lucky and I am one of the guys with a take home car, and I take that seriously. Since I have it, I use it to the benifit of my dept, and the citizens. I give many, many FREE hours of my time each year that I don't get paid for. I thought I made that clear, but guess not.

Yes, I was parked in the "fire lane" but was still in an emergency vehicle that was logged on, and required to respond to emergency calls. Even if this was an issue, I would have received the emergency call before it was possible for any other emergency vehicle to arrive based upon simple physics. Even if i hadn't, had an emergency situation came up, that is where my car would have been parked anyway. Second, no exits/entrances were blocked. It was really equal distance from the closest actual parking space. As I stated earlier the managers of the business REQUESTED we park our cars there as a deterrent for potential shenanigans. We do so as a favor to the business, as we do whenever we do a business check at night. I try to do multiple checks of the sort when i work overnight. It is much easier to deter crime, than it is to deal with crime after the fact.

I'm not really sure what "protesting" and "offensive stance" you mean. I am seriously asking how you can be "offensive" while pricing cheese? Please, let me know that one. Maybe if the guy hates people who can do math in their head... I'm posting an experience that happened to me. I'm wondering aloud why the guy felt the need to engage me when not a single part of this affected him in any way.

I fail to see where I have demanded, asked for, or expected any special treatment. I simply wanted to be left along while i bought my damn lunch. Or if not, at least been engaged in polite conversation. I was taught if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything.

I get this profession is scrutinized, but I look at it this way. There are things I know little about. Electricity for example. I dont understand it, and as such I hire out work when i need it done. Since I am an adult, and can recognize my limits, I would never sit around and critique an electrician when I don't have a lick of experience. I defer to them. I don't jump into internet threads armchair quarterbacking electricians any time there is an electrical fire somewhere in the US. I expect the same courtesy. I didn't do a thing to this guy... yet he somehow lumped me into whatever bad experience, or bad attitude he had. That's his problem, not mine.

Sounds like that POS dickweed now deceased troll that gave lbj and others such a hard time has a brother.

Hey man, I don't know you but read your posts here and you seem to be a good man doing a hard job that I couldn't do.

I'm about the age of the man who disrespected you and let me assure you most of us with a little age on us have respect for you and your profession.

As for what happened at the store, it was just a opportunity for you to be the bigger man and for you to see there's a LOT more men on Sig Forum on your side than the one who was not.

Carry on and be safe.

GGF

Thanks KevinCW, really no offense intended.

JALLEN had a great post above.
Please consider his post in regards to my comments.

I appreciate the work you do.

I have little time in my life to worry about where a LEO has his/her car parked. But logic would say the closer to the front the better because if shit goes down, and it seems to go down unexpectedly and pretty fast these days, access to it should probably be as close as possible. I do like the stores that encourage LEO to swing by, hang for a bit and BS over some covfefe and donuts - or a discount as this one does. Good on them.

Complaining at an LEO walking around a grocery store about a tax increase, is about as useful as doing that to a teacher. Maybe he should op'ed that in the local paper at the politicians or the 68% that passed it, not that many will read it. Although I tire of the constant tax increases, it is really the useless politicians that can't seem to prioritize our money as they wastefully spend and then use LEO/Fire/Teachers as the pawns in their spending games.... (sorry for the tax drift.)

In spite of his V-Vet hat, maybe he is an old hippie (antifa/blm/sjw/criminal type) and is just unhappy in his life and everything about everyone. Assholes are everywhere, nice you chose the high path and didn't have to stomp his ass. I was in a Walmart the other night, there was an asshole at the front money office just being a total jerk to the staff and I was thinking it won't be long before the manager has to call 911 on this idiot (everything in life he was complaining about were the result of his bad decisions - not Walmart's money transfer pickup policies) - I was kind of hoping to get to watch them come.

Thanks for working so hard for your community, it's a tough spot to be in, but you guys are appreciated by the majority of people that support the thin blue line.

My advice to my officers who had such encounters was this: "You only had to deal with the asshole for a few minutes and get to go home at the end of your shift. That guy is going to be an asshole for the rest of his life".

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:
Thanks KevinCW, really no offense intended.

JALLEN had a great post above.
Please consider his post in regards to my comments.

I appreciate the work you do.

No offense taken, simply setting the record straight.

Had circumstances been slightly different, they guy may have had a point if not a shitty of making it.

But even if so, he had no way of knowing so. He sought out a confrontation. I wasnt going to indulge.

Yep, the guy was definitely in the wrong with his comments.

I was once in Maplewood at a large shopping plaza. I had a limousine sitting in the fire lane, engine running, while I was inside the building about 50 feet from the door. I was with the property owner, his real estate broker, the owner of a title company, and a few others.

One of the girls called over to me and said there was an officer sitting behind the limo. I walk outside, he's writing in his ticket book, and before I can even say a thing he puts up his hand in a "don't talk" fashion and says "It's only a $5.00 ticket".

So despite the fact that I wasn't parked, and despite the fact that I was with the owner of the property, at his building, in the fire lane that he paid for, we still got a ticket.

I get why police do it. I get why fire trucks do it. I get why the UPS guy does it. The same reason I do it when I have occasion to. Just consider yourself lucky that you didn't write yourself a $5.00 ticket.

You should remember this from your days in retail. It doesn't matter how hard you try, or how far out of your way you go, you'll never make everybody happy. Somebody will always be bent out of shape for whatever reason, and they'll take it out on whomever happens to be convenient at the moment.

I understand the circumstances and I personally have no problem with it, however it is a public perception issue and when officers or departments are tone deaf on the minor things it can create easily avoided bad PR and lead to major things.

In some cases the “little” violations are how it starts. Explained away by “I am a cop”, “I am on duty”, “this will just take a minute”, etc. Then for some it grows, driving 5 over on the way home after shift becomes 10 or 15 over, then tailgating, improper lane travel, passing in no pass zone, using the carpool lane for commuting in the take home car (legal, but ethical?), etc. In most cases with justification and explanation to excuse or try and legitimize the behavior.

All the same things the average citizen gets stopped for, ticketed for, and pays $1000 or more for between time off work, fines, and increased insurance cost. You see why some get so pissed about it?

It is a slippery slope, and some (thankfully a very small number) end up at the bottom pimping out their ex-wife, using NCIC and DOL records checks to screen her customers, taking and selling illegal drugs, using Department funds for personal purchases, and a host of other illegal acts because they thought they were above the law. Exaggeration? Not at all, one of the local officers did all that and more a couple years back (Deputy Pimp daddy) .


Think of it this way, that guy was voicing his opinion on you because you and your relatively minor infraction, at that time, were available and represented to him the behavior of a lot of your breathren who he hasn’t been able to confront or challenge. The badge stands for all, all stand for the badge.


Can I call out the cop tailgating me or driving 15 over in a marked City of XXX police car with no emergency equip. activated, heading away from that city in the next county? Nope, no face to face opportunity. Sure, some will call to complain, but most don’t because it is assumed nothing will happen and that when it comes to following traffic stuff like the rest of us have to, cops are above the laws they have been sworn to enforce.

When people see this time and time again, it grates on them and they remember. It builds over time and at some point some poor guy just trying to get through another shift takes 100% of the fallout for officers questionable actions when he might only have been personally responsible for 2% of it.


No one with half a brain would question you stopping at a store before, after, or even during your shift. Given all the reports of restaurants tampering with police food, I wouldn’t fault anyone for brown bagging it. Just like any other job, cops get meal and coffee breaks. Unfortunately your legit excuse for doing some light grocery shopping sustains the parking violation. You were “on duty”, but not on “official business”.

“On duty” but not on a call at the store doesn’t sound like a reason to park in a fire lane and gives legitimate concern. Probably no exception in whatever your firelane laws are for it either (all the WA emergency vehicle exceptions tend to have a restriction connecting to official business or while responding).

The two combined behaviors reasonably give the perception of a “rules don’t apply to me” attitude to someone who has probably several other examples of it. If you aren’t there on “official business” people are going to question it and some might call an officer out for it. Parked in a parking spot shopping, guy probably wouldn’t have said a word. In the fire lane, at the counter talking to the clerk about a call or PD “business” without groceries, probably wouldn’t have said a word.



You wrote a LOT justifying why you felt it was ok, very little to none on what potential benefit or gain doing so provides. The assumption is a faster response to a high priority call. If a call came out that warranted a dump and run response, would the extra 6 seconds of running to a parking space really make any difference?

(Side note- have you or your Dept had any exposure to “Below 100”? campaign to reduce officer injuries and officers injuring others while responding to calls. Basically shows how a better reasoned, if fractionally slower, response vs. a “gotta get there NOW” reaction/mentality leads to better outcomes. Very good stuff...)


I don’t know you, I don’t think anyone would question my support or commitment to cops, and this isn’t personal. I don’t for a minute think you are out to “take advantage” of the badge. Consider this though, using a low-likelihood scenario potential (aka “what if...”) to justify or excuse unlawful or unethical behavior in most cases is essentially an admission that the behavior was wrong while trying to avoid the responsibility or consequences of the behavior.

One of our Dept mantras is “We do the right thing”. It really is a mindset, keep in mind that wearing the uniform and driving the rolling billboard, to John Q Public, EVERYTHING you do reflects not just on you but on your department and every other cop out there.



Bottom line, for the Department I work for, that would be a no-no. In our Department, accepting the discount, even such a small one, offered by the store would be an ethics violation and get someone in legitimate hot water far more than any traffic infraction faux pas ever would.


Edit to add...

quote:

It was really equal distance from the closest actual parking space.

So really no benefit whatsoever achieved? Sorry, this hurts your argument more than it helps.

quote:

As I stated earlier the managers of the business REQUESTED we park our cars there as a deterrent for potential shenanigans.

If I get the ok from a business to park in a disabled spot is it ok?

quote:

We do so as a favor to the business...

I don’t know about your area, but in mine this coupled with a discount would present a liability concern over preferential treatment, conflict of interest, ethics, etc.

That’s not on you as you have come into this culture, but at some point don’t be surprised if such “favors” don’t come back to bite your dept in the ass at some point.

quote:

It is much easier to deter crime, than it is to deal with crime after the fact.

Agreed, also much easier to avoid compliants of misconduct than to deal with them after the fact.

quote:

Originally posted by kimber1911:

1. You stayed on the clock to gain extra overtime pay on your way home from work and further extended the overtime pay by stopping to shop.

The radio isn't a time clock. Just because you don't log off doesn't mean you get paid OT. Just because you log on doesn't mean you get paid OT. For us, even if you punch in for court early you don't get paid until your subpoena time starts. You actually have to be doing something to get OT, not just have your radio on.

Anyway,

I don't use the fire lane unless I'm on something official, and I don't mix official and personal if I am in the fire lane. I understand both sides of the argument, but the perception of the public matters. I also don't think the extra few steps to a normal parking spot are going to be the difference in life or death matters.

I also hated driving a marked car on the interstate. Drive at the speed limit and you become the grand marshal of a traffic parade. Speed and you're a hypocritical scoff law. One of the advantages of making detective is having an unmarked and driving in relative anonymity again.

Some other time and you wouldn't even have made a note of it afterwards except to remember the guy. But after so many hours, you're just drained all around and the incident got to you.

I think it was just the state that you were in. That means rest up as much as you can and drink some vitamins. I think B 12 and B Complex is what my wife gave me to shore me up when I needed it.

Never actually met anyone in public quite like that but have known a couple otherwise, worked with one and he was kind-a like that.

Some people just seem to go out of their way to be be a total a$$. You did the best thing you could do by just trying to ignore the jerk.

I had what I referred to as :
"The Rule of Ten"
If I dealt with 10 people during a shift, 8 of them were fine to deal with.
The ninth was an asshole.
And the tenth guy you had to fight.
This contact for you was number 9.
My favorite "outraged citizen" rant was:
"Why doesn't your patrol car have license plates"? "I have to buy plates, so should you"!
My response:
"Would spending more of your tax money on plates for a patrol car make you happy"?

its a simple as you were number four, thats it thats all.


he has some p.t.s.d. going on,
his battery was dead this morning
and
his V.A. appointment got rescheduled for
next month, and then
then !
there was you

quote:

Originally posted by KevinCW:
the more I think about it, he really did look too young to be a Vietname vet...
...

He didn't look much older than 50, but looks are deceiving ...

Exactly.

My age has come up in conversation with strangers about 3-4 times in the last year or so, often in relation to discussion about my (at the time) impending retirement. When I've answered the "How old are you?" question their jaws hit the floor. No exaggeration. Typically it went something like "Really?" "Yeah, really. How old did you think I was?" "I wouldn't have pegged you for a day over 55, at the most."

So you never can tell.

As far as your encounter: I'm guessing simply grumpy old man is all. Maybe GOM having a particularly bad day.

I can be one of those and have those days--even in retirement. (Tho I'd be unlikely to give a cop a hard time cuz I like cops, have worked with cops and have [had] cop friends.)

Let it roll off, if you can. And thanks for what you do.

So without reading anything anyone else wrote...

He saw you parked where you shouldn't have been (it wasn't an emergency, you were shopping). He probably thought "This guy thinks he's special, the rules and laws the rest of us have to follow don't apply to him!"

That's what I think when I see people parking in the fire lane. And that's what I would have thought if I saw you inside shopping, but like him I probably would have been bothered more than if had been John Q. Public. Because JQP won't write him a citation for doing what you just did, but "you" will. Plus if anyone should know better, it's "you".

quote:

Originally posted by cas:
So without reading anything anyone else wrote...

He saw you parked where you shouldn't have been (it wasn't an emergency, you were shopping). He probably thought "This guy thinks he's special, the rules and laws the rest of us have to follow don't apply to him!"

That's what I think when I see people parking in the fire lane. And that's what I would have thought if I saw you inside shopping, but like him I probably would have been bothered more than if had been John Q. Public. Because JQP won't write him a citation for doing what you just did, but "you" will. Plus if anyone should know better, it's "you".

You really ought to read the thread before commenting.