quote:

Originally posted by erj_pilot:

quote:

Originally posted by TXJIM:
...and now need time to rest and stage supplies before attempting to pull more.

And perhaps improve on the plan based on the success up to this point and reassess "threat and error management". GREAT NEWS SO FAR!!!!

True

quote:

Originally posted by Woodman:
After seeing the topography of the area, it looks like an outflow bore could be drilled to prevent future tragedy.

Or how about a sign: “Caution. This cave is subject to rapid and unexpected flooding that can trap you without warning. If that happens, you may not be as lucky as the last group.”

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Woodman:
After seeing the topography of the area, it looks like an outflow bore could be drilled to prevent future tragedy.

Or how about a sign: “Caution. This cave is subject to rapid and unexpected flooding that can trap you without warning. If that happens, you may not be as lucky as the last group.”

Pretty sure there were already warning signs.

Probably time to blow the cave entrance for good.

So far, so good!


Thailand cave rescue: four boys taken to hospital; operation to resume later – live

https://www.theguardian.com/wo...rs-trapped-boys-live

God bless them all... rescued and rescuers alike!

Strong work, divers!
Don

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:

quote:

Originally posted by Woodman:
After seeing the topography of the area, it looks like an outflow bore could be drilled to prevent future tragedy.

Or how about a sign: “Caution. This cave is subject to rapid and unexpected flooding that can trap you without warning. If that happens, you may not be as lucky as the last group.”

The Grand Canyon trails are littered with signs warning not to go too far down the trail, or at all, without good shoes and enough water.

Idiots do it anyway. It always astonished me to see tourists half way down to the river dressed like they were going to the beach, little or no water.

Who needs water? There is a river down there isn't there?

The physician in our group could have made a good living helping these morons. I wonder how many people the park rangers save every year, water, medical help, carry their worthless asses up to the rim from going too far down.

Same with the beaches in San Diego. People come from the hinterlands with no idea about surf, but it looks fun and way cool. OK!

Signs are for the others.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Signs are for the others.

I actually think we should take the warning labels off of everything and let nature take it's course.

quote:

Originally posted by SevenPlusOne:

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:
Signs are for the others.

I actually think we should take the warning labels off of everything and let nature take it's course.

Maybe just a warning “if you’re not familiar with this, please visit www. Or call this number”, that way we reward those with curious minds who understand risk and mitigations, but may be ignorant of the specifics to make a quality decision on their own.

Although it’s a bit of satisfying schadenfreude to see those who don’t read or heed the warnings get into pain and trouble, there are plenty of people who do pay attention and who thereby benefit from them. In my little county surrounded by 14,000-foot peaks, we hear about and shake our heads at those who don’t use good sense when climbing them, but the one thing that no one has suggested (yet) is that the huge majority of sensible ones shouldn’t be able to climb them either. I’m not sure how much someone would have to pay me to go into that cave even without the risk of being trapped by flood water, but I wouldn’t tell anyone else he couldn’t do it or, even less, make it impossible by destroying the entrance. People who do dangerous things through ignorance, indifference, or recklessness will find other dangerous things to do if they can’t do the first.

And what surprises me is how narrowly some things are viewed even on a forum like this: We warned you about the dangers of guns, then made manufacturers put warning signs on them, but that didn’t work to prevent accidents. It must be time to make it impossible to have accidents with guns by keeping you from owning them at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodman:
A diving question: When I dive to the bottom of the lap pool, 10' or so, and as a kid at the YMCA, 12' at the deep end, my eardrums would be in pain. Is the pressure different if you are breathing bottled air? I note the 16' deep passage, and wondered how they'd get the kids to keep up.

Divers experience the same differential pressure in their ears and sinuses. Divers use the Valsalva maneuver to equalize pressure to the surrounding water pressure. You can do the same in the pool and ease the pain. Though it's easier when sucking on a pressurized air bottle.

Generally I have to equalize every 10-15 feet of depth. Sometimes the "squeeze" is to great and I'll need to rise a couple feet to clear it, then continue down. This is reversed when ascending, as the pressure is now higher than the surrounding water.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Although it’s a bit of satisfying schadenfreude to see those who don’t read or heed the warnings get into pain and trouble, there are plenty of people who do pay attention and who thereby benefit from them. In my little county surrounded by 14,000-foot peaks, we hear about and shake our heads at those who don’t use good sense when climbing them, but the one thing that no one has suggested (yet) is that the huge majority of sensible ones shouldn’t be able to climb them either. I’m not sure how much someone would have to pay me to go into that cave even without the risk of being trapped by flood water, but I wouldn’t tell anyone else he couldn’t do it or, even less, make it impossible by destroying the entrance. People who do dangerous things through ignorance, indifference, or recklessness will find other dangerous things to do if they can’t do the first.

And what surprises me is how narrowly some things are viewed even on a forum like this: We warned you about the dangers of guns, then made manufacturers put warning signs on them, but that didn’t work to prevent accidents. It must be time to make it impossible to have accidents with guns by keeping you from owning them at all.

I hope no one interprets my comments above as being prohibitory to people doing things they want to do. Rather these are merely warnings that one should take some factors into account that the unfamiliar or unprepared might want to consider. 4 Rules of Gun safety, wear a helmet, good shoes, plenty of water, no life guard, etc.

Some people read and heed, take precautions, get help, become prepared, and wait until they are ready. Others, those of the mindset that “you can’t tell me what to do”, take their chances.

not sure how to interpret this Reuters article. It indicates a significant increase in the number of divers for the next phase

https://www.reuters.com/articl...tter_impression=true

Four of 12 Thai schoolboys were rescued

The operation to rescue the remaining eight boys - some as young as 11 and weak swimmers - and the coach was called off at nightfall until Monday to give the divers time to replenish oxygen supplies and ensure all preparations were complete.

Thirteen foreign divers and five members of Thailand’s elite navy SEAL unit guided the boys to safety through narrow, submerged passageways that claimed the life of a former Thai navy diver on Friday.

The rescuers needed at least 10 hours to prepare for their next operation, involving about 90 divers in total , 50 of them from foreign countries, he said.

The boys, aged between 11 and 16, went missing with their 25-year-old coach after soccer practice on June 23, setting out on an adventure to explore the cave complex near the border with Myanmar and celebrate a boy’s birthday.

The rescue teams had rehearsed the plan for several days, Narongsak said, and had managed to drain the cave water level considerably, but needed to move fast.

“If we wait and the rain comes in the next few days we will be tired again from pumping and our readiness would drop. If that’s the case, then we have to reassess the situation,” he said.

“We can only carry on the operation once we are ready and this will be done soon, because the air tank and other systems have to be reinstalled,” he told reporters later.

“...I can’t give you an exact number but it should be more than 10 hours but not exceeding 20 hours. The conditions must be stable like today before we can continue the operation.”

An Australian doctor checked the health of the boys on Saturday night and gave the all-clear for the operation to proceed.

The boys were discovered by British divers Richard Stanton and John Volanthen on Monday.

Of the 13-strong foreign dive team - mainly from Europe - three escorted the children, while the remainder were positioned along the dangerous first kilometer stretch, where the boys had to navigate through submerged passageways in some places no more than two feet (0.6 meter) wide.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

not sure how to interpret the last paragraph

it is estimated to be 4000 meters from where the boys are located to the cave entrance.

Now that they have four out they have a good idea on what it is going to take to get the rest out.

I am glad they are taking their time in preparation for the next phase as long as conditions do not deteriorate. I think this bodes well but still an operation fraught with danger.

I think the 90 divers are to position bottles and supplies for the next round.

God bless those who are risking their lives to save these trapped kids. I saw in the news about that one Thai diver who lost his life. I hope no one else does. Prayers for everyone involved in this incident and for the rescuers.

Leave no man behind.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
I think the 90 divers are to position bottles and supplies for the next round.

Or to place more divers along the route for hand offs.

quote:

Originally posted by reloader-1:
I think the 90 divers are to position bottles and supplies for the next round.

Hard to interpret from the article, I would imagine that there's a group of divers that are the primary rescuers tasked with moving the kids, a second group that handles the logistics and pre-positioning of bottles and lastly another group that primarily dealt with prepping the passageways: mapping, anchoring safety lines, installing lighting & ventilation, water drainage, smoothing/reducing obstacles... I can only imagine the amount of compressors that have been brought on-site or, nearby to handle the amount of bottles needed for this operation. Lastly, the exhaustion of this op has got to be crushing, I'm sure there's Dr's watching the divers themselves for telltale signs of such, particular after the one divers death.

One question, do those cans contain oxygen (which the media tends to call it), or just compressed air? Is the latter a fire or explosion hazard?

Most likely the bottles are straight air. There is no depth/pressure problem, so there would be no need to use O2 for decompressing. Straight oxygen could be a fire hazard, but if the O2 level where the kids are has dropped to 15% as reported, bringing in oxygen would be helpful. However when swimming out, there is no need for 02.