quote:

Originally posted by echidna:
Oh, I don't dispute the T&C azzhat's motives...

If you had previously figured out all that I just explained, you must be telepathic and able to read the minds of T&C authorities, because it has taken quite some time for me to get it right.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:

quote:

Originally posted by echidna:
Oh, I don't dispute the T&C azzhat's motives...

If you had previously figured out all that I just explained, you must be telepathic and able to read the minds of T&C authorities, because it has taken quite some time for me to get it right.

Nah, I came to these conclusions based on what I read in this thread. The whole "catch them on the way out" biz stinks and has no benign explanation.

quote:

Originally posted by scratchy:
I travel frequently. Laws differ across the world. While I feel deeply for these folks and their plight, my travel luggage has never has a firearms related item in it. We never mix range and travel, or carry and travel. Ever. Most non-US countries have rather severe penalties for guns and ammunition.

The US TSA imposes some severe penalties too. Keep guns and luggage far apart.

You hit the nail on the head. Similar to never mixing live and dummy ammo between your gunsmith bench and your office desk, or flammables near anything that generates the spark, that sort of thing, the principle is exactly that same across the board. If I flew I'd follow this those rules for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:


You hit the nail on the head. Similar to never mixing live and dummy ammo between your gunsmith bench and your office desk, or flammables near anything that generates the spark, that sort of thing, the principle is exactly that same across the board. If I flew I'd follow this those rules for sure.

So what...NEVER fly? IF I fly, I bring guns. Because everywhere else is even less safe than where I live. In OUR country, the entire point of the 2nd amendment is that our Federal F'tards are forced to recognize that GOD gives us the authority to protect ourselves from not just asshats in purple hair or towels on their heads, but from the very asshats parading around as our 'overlords'. Traveling abroad...I get it, tread as light as you can in another man's country...but there was a time when the world respected the power and influence of US citizens. Meaning no harm...such predatory practices wouldn't have been allowed to continue. ONLY because we have WEAK leaders themselves persecuting us, are these pricks in T&C getting away with this.

"If I flew I'd.... blah, blah, blah" That holds about as much water and is about as funny as the "I lost them in a boating accident" BS. Exercise your rights while you still can. YOU CAN FLY WITH GUNS. Follow the rules for as long as you can, but don't let the grabbers win by convincing you to sit in the cuck chair.

Don't forget these high school dropouts playing security theater have outlawed pocket knives, fingernail clippers, and other such stupid shit...and FAIL utterly to catch large amounts of such "weapons" in their ridiculously over-reaching and expensive search methods and technology.

This situation calls for some Teddy Roosevelt style diplomacy (aka walk softly and carry a big stick). Have naval exercises off their coast and meanwhile the diplomats suggest that ammo should be found on way in and be a small fine.

This is a territory of England playing these games? Apparently there are no diplomats or embassies that can clear their heads and show them the light? Prob why I would never do well in politics. I’d be right alongside tatortodd

quote:

That sounds like a great general plan, but falls apart when traveling for shooting classes. Perhaps a better rule is to be very careful with your firearms and ammunition and be aware of where they are at all times.

Happened to me some years ago after finishing an OpSpec class in Oregon. I found a few 9 mm rounds in a backpack after checking luggage. Instead of just tossing them in the trash I called Portland police and surrendered them. Took ridiculously long but I had no trouble with them.

The guys blaming the travelers (really victims here) are completely missing the point. Why would you go to a place that is so eager to steal your freedom? It’s not just about Turks and Caicos. I would advise against traveling anywhere you have to worry that something from your day-to-day life could land you in jail. That includes some places here. New Jersey and D.C. come to mind for me.

As I stated in my earlier post, I have dedicated range bags that I don’t use for travel, but I can certainly see how a bullet or magazine could end up in a backpack that I use in my daily life. That bag could certainly be pressed into use as a travel bag in the right situation.

I envy the folks who say it couldn’t happen to them. That amount of attention to detail must net you a level of prosperity I can’t imagine.

I'm told ABC Evening News last night had a report on this. The more light on T&C and their perverse actions the better.

I still wonder about the element of corruption in this fleecing of tourists between the courts, law enforcement, and attorneys given the corruption scandals in T&C in recent years.

Never mind honest mistakes. There's been reports to one country I've been to several times where customs agents allegedly plant ammunition they supposedly found in people's luggage to set them up for a shakedown.

It's sad and amazing at how many other countries will make an example out of you for just being American.

No country is worth that amount of trouble. It'd be awesome if their tourism dried TF up overnight now wouldn't it?

quote:

Originally posted by 83v45magna:
No country is worth that amount of trouble. It'd be awesome if their tourism dried TF up overnight now wouldn't it?

Many people will not care, because it does not impact them, because they are not gun owners and therefore there is no chance they will fall prey to this trap.

If you look at comments on Facebook and Twitter with regard to this subject, you will find that almost all of them are negative or mocking of the plight of their fellow American citizens who have not sought to break the law.

However, there are many potential T&C tourists, gun owners or no, who may- if presented with the facts in evidence- realize that the behavior of T&C authorities indicate more than just a sovereign nation enforcing its laws; it demonstrates a contempt and a hatred, even, of a people who are citizens of a nation T&C depends upon.

They resent us, hate us, even, because they depend upon us to live. This livelihood requires an invasion of outsiders into their small country, and though the tourist industry in these islands is seasonal, there is not a single day in the T&C when Americans do not crawl their islands. The people of T&C have permanent house guests which they wish were not there.

Even though it is apparent that these incidents have occurred for as long as T&C has had this particular law, these two latest occurrences have brought about national attention in the United States, which did not exist before. The fact that T&C has now revoked the 'exceptional circumstances' clause in the law has heightened the drama, since the stakes are now much higher, and I have been advised by people knowledgeable in the goings-on in T&C that this added momentum means now is the time to bring as much attention to bear upon the matter as possible.

The authorities in T&C have now demonstrated that all they care about really is inflicting as much stress, pain and punishment as they can on American citizens.

For that reason- and because of our knowledge and personal involvement in these matters, due to our relationship with dave7378 and Mike Evans- I am asking for any volunteers willing to come forward to create and host a simple web page directing any interested parties in the facts of the matter, and I will also be requesting assistance from anyone knowledgeable in SEO (search engine optimization), to make said page conspicuous to anyone performing searches for vacation destinations in the general region of T&C.

Since these comments are within this thread, I will create a separate thread, to make the request conspicuous.

Perhaps these efforts will fall flat. Asking people to volunteer their time and services, no matter what the cause, is anything but a sure deal, but I will tell you this, gentlemen and ladies- as an American citizen, I am angered by the actions of the T&C government and authorities, and I want to try to capitalize on the momentum these matters have gained in the public eye, and allow the chips to fall where they may.

Based upon what I know, I think the T&C governor, premier and ministers may now realize that their treatment of American citizens with regard to this law, has been a mistake, if for no other reason than it may very well damage their economy to a not insignificant degree.

There’s at least one more American involved.

“ Mother's warning after son's 8-month Turks and Caicos prison sentence: ‘It's not behind us'.

Three American tourists are detained on Turks and Caicos Islands for violating a strict firearm and ammunition law, and a mother whose son was imprisoned for months is warning tourists not to go to the popular vacation destination.

NBC10 Boston first broke the story about American tourists who have been charged with possession of ammunition after vacationing on the islands of Turks and Caicos. Upon conviction, the charge comes with a mandatory minimum sentence of 12 years in prison, except where the court finds exceptional circumstances.

There are currently three U.S tourists being held on bail for firearms and ammunition prosecutions, according to a statement released Wednesday by the Turks and Caicos Islands Attorney General’s Chambers and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Consumer investigative reporter Leslie Gaydos spoke with Teresea Pfau, the mother of an Indiana man who was released in February after receiving an eight-month prison sentence on the Island. She is speaking out after learning there are more U.S. citizens potentially facing a similar fate as her son.

“It has been one of the most traumatic times of my life,” Pfau shared.

She says she is closely following the story of Americans Ryan Watson and Bryan Hagerich, who are currently detained in Turks and Caicos Islands on charges of possession of ammunition.

Pfau’s son Michael Grimm was sentenced last year for the same offense.

“It's very heartbreaking because I know the pain that they're going through,” Pfau said.

Her family was vacationing in the British Overseas Territory last August when her son mistakenly brought ammunition in a bag he used during a previous trip, according to Pfau.

“He did not have a gun. And, you know, there was no violence involved. And so we really did hold out hope that he would possibly get a very hefty fine,” said Pfau. “Maybe he would get, you know, barred from ever returning. But once everything was set into motion, you know, it was a devastating experience.”

She said the family spent more than $100,000 on an extended stay, bail money and attorney fees and were constantly worried about Grimm’s safety.

“It was the hardest time in my life and for our immediate family, and feeling helpless that there was nothing that we could do,” Pfau said.

“Just the trying to arrange to see him or speak with him was the biggest, I think, barrier,” Pfau shared about the experience of having her son in prison on the Island, adding, “knowing the conditions — the prison had been sanctioned by the U.N. for unsanitary conditions.”

She told Gaydos she often worried about whether or not her son was safe or healthy.

Grimm spent more than five months in prison in Grand Turk before being released in February. Pfau said she and her son are still processing their traumatic experience.

“We both have sought professional services to help us deal with this trauma and this PTSD, so it's not behind us. So we're just trying to figure out how we can be helpful to others who may be in this situation and how we can make a change, whether it's through the embassy, the travel alerts or in any way that we can. We don't want anyone else to ever have to experience this,” Pfau said.

At a State Department news conference, a representative addressed the detainment of Watson and Hagerich: “We're aware of the arrest of U.S. citizens in Turks and Caicos. When a U.S. citizen is arrested, we stand by ready to provide all appropriate consular assistance, but in a foreign country, U.S. citizens are subject to the country's laws, even if they may differ from what is law in the United States.”

On Wednesday, the U.S. Embassy in the Bahamas re-issued an alert urging all travelers going to Turks & Caicos Islands to carefully check their luggage for stray ammunition or forgotten weapons before departing from the United States.

And the Turks and Caicos Attorney General and the Director of Public Prosecutions issued a statement Wednesday saying the islands’ firearm ordinance “requires the Supreme Court to impose a mandatory minimum sentence and fine for certain firearm offenses, except in circumstances where the court finds that there are exceptional circumstances.”

The statement went on to add that there have been five separate cases within a two-year period where the Supreme Court of the islands found exceptional circumstances: only four of the offenders were fined and one was given a custodial sentence below the mandatory minimum.

Grimm’s eight-month sentence was below the mandatory minimum of 12 years in prison.

The director of public prosecutions said in their statement, “8 firearms and ammunitions prosecutions in total were done involving tourists from the United States, 3 of which are currently before the court with each of the defendants on bail.

Ryan Watson is one of those three. He was let out on bail today pending his next hearing.”

LINK TO STORY

There is another part I can’t copy and past, I suggest you read the link top to bottom.

I think probably the local attorneys are in on the money grab and the government officials as well.
.

I've been to several Island nations on vacations. I will never go to Turks and Caicos. No Way!!

February 1966, I was relocating from the U.S. mainland to Puerto Rico, for work. My airplane did not have the fuel range to make the flight non-stop, so I made a refueling stop (and overnight rest) at T&C before the final leg of the flight.

My stops at out-islands in The Bahamas were generally pleasant, people were friendly and helpful.

Not so at T&C. I felt very unwelcome there. Their attitude seemed to be "spend money here and then leave."

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
February 1966, I was relocating from the U.S. mainland to Puerto Rico, for work. My airplane did not have the fuel range to make the flight non-stop, so I made a refueling stop (and overnight rest) at T&C before the final leg of the flight.

I see that T&C is a little more than 1/2 way in the flight path from Miami to San Juan.

There are pistol matches in PR (USPCA Match and others). Although it seems remote, it's possible that one could be flying to San Juan legally with a gun, and have a mechanical, weather, passenger medical issue, (pilots here can probably think of more reasons to land in an unplanned manner), and make an unplanned landing at T&C.

Then the captain tells you they will take off in 12 hours while they wait for parts and something gets fixed, so come back with your luggage and be ready.

Then suddenly you are at T&C with your guns. Obviously you can't trust 'declaring' them.

Remote, I know, but it's possible. Isn't it?????

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:

quote:

Originally posted by scratchy:
I travel frequently. Laws differ across the world. While I feel deeply for these folks and their plight, my travel luggage has never has a firearms related item in it. We never mix range and travel, or carry and travel. Ever. Most non-US countries have rather severe penalties for guns and ammunition.

The US TSA imposes some severe penalties too. Keep guns and luggage far apart.

You hit the nail on the head. Similar to never mixing live and dummy ammo between your gunsmith bench and your office desk, or flammables near anything that generates the spark, that sort of thing, the principle is exactly that same across the board. If I flew I'd follow this those rules for sure.

I'm confused... Am I the only one here who flies with firearms? When I'm traveling to unfamiliar places is when I MOST feel I should be armed.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
… For that reason- and because of our knowledge and personal involvement in these matters, due to our relationship with dave7378 and Mike Evans- I am asking for any volunteers willing to come forward to create and host a simple web page directing any interested parties in the facts of the matter, and I will also be requesting assistance from anyone knowledgeable in SEO (search engine optimization), to make said page conspicuous to anyone performing searches for vacation destinations in the general region of T&C.

Since these comments are within this thread, I will create a separate thread, to make the request conspicuous….

I have access to multiple domains and web pages. I’m willing to join in.

Thank you, mark. That will be most helpful.