Seems like there are more / larger wildfires over time.

I have a "safe" but it's cheap and not really up to the job. It's cheap brand, small, with a twist lock door and key. I don't even lock it because it's probably a 10 second pick. And in any case, it's light enough to just carry out and pick later. I'd rather have the thief just open it and see that it's just docs.

That being said, it's offers dubious fire and water protection.

I have some docs, replaceable but tedious and painful to do so. Passports and such.

I'm thinking about this safe: https://americansecuritysafes.com/product/csc1913/

1) Seems like it offers good fire and theft protection but not sure. Especially for the price (can I get better protection in the same price ballpark?)?

2) 120 min fire rating seems plenty but not really sure what this test is. And seems like different safe makers have different tests. Is this safe good enough for typical house fire (house burns to ground) - would paper and flash drives / SSDs / DVD disks in this safe survive?

3) 300 lbs is pretty heavy - am I going to need to bolt this to the floor? Or will a thief just use a dolly and take it away? Bolting to the floor is a little undesired for the location I'm thinking.

4) I'm thinking about the front read dial - more reliable although probably harder on the eyes. Electronic keypad may be okay but I can't find any info on reliability.

5) I was considering a bigger safe to store more stuff. But it's price prohibitive $8000+. Other than the huge hassle to replace, the stuff I would store is much cheaper than the cost of the safe. Doesn't seem to make financial sense.

Recommendations? Good safe? Consider something else? Bolt to floor? Electronic vs dial lock?


ETA: final decision - please help
I've narrowed the choices to 3 safes. They are different prices but in the same ballpark for me. Please help me choose (my first safe). Requirements remain:

1) keeping documents and CD/USB drive/SSD safe during a fire (I will also look into thermal materials to wrap around objects inside the safe). I have two fire stations w/in 5 minutes.
2) smash and grab burglary protection - enough protection such that a burglar will decide to leave the safe alone
3) made in usa preferred but not entirely possible I'm finding
4) my confusion is regarding how different the burglary and fire protection really is (practically speaking) between these offerings.


A) BF3416 $3360. B rated. UL cert RSC burglary. ETL certified 60 min fire protection (350F at 1700F). Rated for burglary and fire (but only up to 1 hour)
https://americansecuritysafes.com/product/bf3416/

B) UL3918 $3210. UL listed 2 hour fire and impact rating (2 hours up to 1850F). Rated for fire (2 hours) but no mention of burglary protection.
https://americansecuritysafes.com/product/ul3918/

C) CE3524 $4353. UL certified TL-15 burglary. Factory rated 120 minute fire (350F up to 1850F). Seems decent for burglary and fire (although only factory certified - how reliable is this?). But another 30% in price (worth it?).
https://americansecuritysafes.com/product/ce3524/

This message has been edited. Last edited by: konata88,

Be sure to keep an eye on the used market in your area too.
I've found items like that for a fraction of the new prices and ended up with something much better than I would have been willing to pay for at the new price.
You're right about the weight being a deterrent for the average burglar/thief. Unless you appear to have things of exceptionally high value, most are looking for a quick grab and run. Most of us need to remember we're not trying to keep James Bond out, just Bubba Bond, the nearby miscreant.

quote:

Seems like it offers good fire and theft protection but not sure. Especially for the price (can I get better protection in the same price ballpark

AMSEC builds good safes, and I have sold them for many years. The CSC is an imported fire/burglary safe. If you simply wanted fire protection I would look at a UL listed fire safe.

quote:

120 min fire rating seems plenty but not really sure what this test is. And seems like different safe makers have different tests. Is this safe good enough for typical house fire (house burns to ground) - would paper and flash drives / SSDs / DVD disks in this safe survive?

This is why I mentioned the UL fire listing above. This is the benchmark testing here in the US.

Standard fire safes are designed to prevent paper from charring. This puts the internal temperature goal at around 350 degrees. Paper will survive, perhaps damaged at this temperature. Flashdrives and the rest would be destroyed. They do make safes rated for media, or inserts to allow media to survive inside a fire safe. These are designed to keep the temperature below 150 degrees.

quote:

300 lbs is pretty heavy - am I going to need to bolt this to the floor? Or will a thief just use a dolly and take it away?

You should bolt it, but it is heavy enough that most methheads would leave it alone. Somebody like me could come in and take it out in less than a minute or two.

quote:

I'm thinking about the front read dial - more reliable although probably harder on the eyes. Electronic keypad may be okay but I can't find any info on reliability.

Most of these will come with a top read spyproof dial/ring combo from the factory. I still prefer the mechanicals over digital from a long term reliability standpoint. Front read black and white dials are the easiest to see and use, but you will either have to special order it, or if your local dealer is a safe guy, have him convert it.

quote:

Consider something else

One of my online friends is a safe tech in California. Every time they have a wildfire he donates some of his and his staff's time to open safes free of charge to those whos homes burned. He often posts photos on our security forum.

What survives is really hit and miss. Those fires can burn long and hot, or hot and fast. I've seem some good survivors, but the majority of them don't.

If you only had a handful of smaller items, you may want to consider an in the floor safe. Buried in concrete and below ground level would be your best bet in a wild fire. Easy to hide, impossible to walk off with, and good security to boot.

Thanks!!

CSC - I didn't catch that it was imported. I thought all amsec safes were made in usa. Good catch.

UL: I didn't know what you meant. But I found their UL line with UL certification. I'm looking at this safe now (and it's 800lbs): https://americansecuritysafes.com/product/ul3918/

I'll look into inserts for protecting media.

Ground safe is interesting but I have concrete foundation. Maybe I could install in the garage?

So long as your concrete isn't prestressed, you simply cut a hole, dig it out, (optional lining), place safe, and refill with concrete. Doesn't matter if it's inside your house or the garage. And although you can install a floor safe inside of a floor at any level, below grade is best from a fire standpoint. You can protect against water by placing items in water resistant containers or bags. The round door versions are the most secure.

quote:

looking at this safe now

In full disclosure that safe is partially imported as well. Of course in today's times finding something you want that's US made is going to be easier said than done.

Does the safe company do that? Or would I hire an independent contractor? How much would that cost (typical ballpark)? $1000?

Some safe companies will do it, some will suggest you hire an outside contractor. We have done it both ways ourselves depending upon our work load, the complexity, and the customer. Some obviously don't want outside parties to know what they are doing. If you were handy you could do it yourself.

I'm looking at AMSEC and I was told that they just had a very large price increase, due to high demand now. Apparently everyone wants a high quality safe now

In my shopping it's down the Libery vs Amsec, if that helps. Leaning towards Amsec right now.

Seems like it's okay to ignore the burglary ratings. Ratings seem to be based on relatively simple tools and getting in within a certain time period. $10k safes seem to get 15 minutes. I'm not expecting any protection beyond smash and grab; any reasonable safe cracker will get in easily to a $2k safe.

I'm just going to focus on fire rating. My top contender is still above (too heavy to carry away and good fire rating).

My Fort Knox safe weighs in at just under 1000lbs empty and I still had it bolted down. The “delivery“ guys did this for me. I honestly cannot remember what the service cost but I know it wasn’t more than a couple a hundred dollars. They worked for the safe retailer.

quote:

I was told that they just had a very large price increase, due to high demand now

It's not so much the demand so much as the increase cost for material and production. It's happening across the board.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Seems like it's okay to ignore the burglary ratings. Ratings seem to be based on relatively simple tools and getting in within a certain time period. $10k safes seem to get 15 minutes. I'm not expecting any protection beyond smash and grab; any reasonable safe cracker will get in easily to a $2k safe.

I'm just going to focus on fire rating. My top contender is still above (too heavy to carry away and good fire rating).

It depends... a lot of safes that are not burglary rated can be opened in about 10 seconds if they are not bolted down, by knocking them over and using a huge pry bar (e.g., many gun "safes" classed as "RSCs" or "residential security containers" fall into this category).

It still takes someone who is familiar with how to do it and breaks in with a huge pry bar and the intention of opening a safe, but it is WAY faster and easier than most people expect.

There are a lot of YouTube videos of demonstrations of this.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Does the safe company do that? Or would I hire an independent contractor? How much would that cost (typical ballpark)? $1000?

a1abdj took great care of me. Got me in touch with a local company who does all the installs, moving etc with his network

I’ll put him in the same catagory as our forum jeweler for customer service

I got a massive BF series.

quote:

Originally posted by a1abdj:
So long as your concrete isn't prestressed, you simply cut a hole, dig it out, (optional lining), place safe, and refill with concrete. Doesn't matter if it's inside your house or the garage. And although you can install a floor safe inside of a floor at any level, below grade is best from a fire standpoint. You can protect against water by placing items in water resistant containers or bags. The round door versions are the most secure.

quote:

looking at this safe now

In full disclosure that safe is partially imported as well. Of course in today's times finding something you want that's US made is going to be easier said than done.

I was just going to suggest this. I cut a hole in our concrete basement floor, dug out the space and filled in the whole with high strength mortar. Fortunately I haven’t had to test it but being in the ground seems to be the best approach to preventing the internal temperatures from rising too much.

OP my safe in my last house was concrete lag bolted into the concrete garage floor. Was a BF 6636 Amec that was like -1000 pounds empty. Never felt uneasy with it

Semi Related…. Anybody got a reliable safe dealer in NW Florida or south Alabama that services NW FL ? Preferable AMSEC. Their list of dealers on their website is pretty thin in my area

Having people not even call back is frustrating. My budget is pretty big as I need storage for dozens of guns. I’d like to get even bigger than 6636 maybe in the 7240 range. And now with NFA items in waiting period, I Will need sooner rather than later

Thanks all. Still researching and went to a store as well.

This is still somewhat confusing:
1) Fully USA made vs Assembled in USA (shell+ made in PRC).
2) Factory(?) fire tested vs UL fire certified to same temps and durations
3) UL certified burglary protection vs 'burglary protection" as featured by the factory
4) AmSec vs AmVault???? What's the diff?
5) Fire protection standard is: Two hour, 350°F factory fire rating. Tested at temperatures up to 1850°F. Good enough? Too much (can go cheaper)?

With the still confusing I think I've narrowed it down to about 4 choices (about the same size and fire rating?):

1) AmSec UL1812x: $1200. Partially sourced from PRC, assembled in US. UL 120 min certified. No burglary certification? Larger UL3918 for $2200.

2) AmSec CSC1913: $1100. No mention of USA - sourced and assembled outside of US? a1adbdj indicated above this is imported. But seems to have some UL certification (RSC) for burglary and factory(?) tested for 2 hour fire protection. Store said it's a popular model but if this is fully imported, it's a no-go.

3) AmSec AmVault CF1814: $3500. Understanding from the store is that this is fully made in USA. Believe it has some UL certified burglary rating (TL-30?) and factory tested 2 hour fire protection.

If I stick with made in USA, there seems to be only one choice: #3. But it's about 3x price. If I cave on that, then the next choice is probably #1; rule out #2 unless it has better burglary protection with equivalent fire protection that I should be considering.

Need some help here: is #3 worth 3x the price, at least some of it? It's hard on my budget so trying to justify at least part of the 3x. Otherwise, is #1 good enough or should I be considering #2? #1 is favored over #2 for now.

Any other model I should be considering (I think I looked at everything; BF line seemed good but $7K+).

Only you can answer that question I'm afraid. I was more than ok with paying a big premium to get a quality made in USA safe (Amsec BF7240). I also bought bigger than I originally wanted and have filled it.

I can but was hoping for some expert insights that's not reflected by AmSec.

1) What is included in the additional $2300 between #1 and #3? They both have similar fire ratings (to the novice consumer).

2) #3 seems to have better burglary protection but not sure what pragmatically it means to me. Does it have a material difference in a typical burglary?

3) How different is the PRC materials from the US materials in this case (whatever materials they may be)?

The BF line seems nice but I have neither the budget nor the space for one of those. Just protecting some paper and electronics. Not even jewelry.

More research and reading. I can safely safe that choosing a safe is confusing and tiring.

My top choice is now the CE/CF2518 (USA $4000); seems tough for both fire and burglary but is expensive.

Cheaper options are two-fold:
1) BF2116 (USA $2100). UL 1 Hour fire + RSC.
2) UL2018 (Partial USA $1700). UL 2 Hour fire + (assumed minimal) burglary (no B/C class construction, no mention of any certification). But I'm mostly interested in fire protection and grab-n-dash so likely sufficient.

As much as I'd like to get the fully made in USA and Fire/Burglary certified CE/CF model, it's just too expensive for me. It'd be really stretching it for me and I'm not sure I can justify / rationalize it.

So, the choice is really: full USA (UL 1 hour + RSC) or partial USA (UL 2 hour + minimal theft (about the same as RSC?).

Bottom line is: UL 1 hour practically sufficient or UL 2 hour is pragmatically better. Once I figure this out, I think the decision can be made.

ETA: anecdotally, seems like a modern house will be burnt down in about 1 hour (roof falls down). So, either the FD will save the house or the house will be gone in about 1 hour. Perhaps 2 hours is not necessary, especially if typical house fire is 1200F and UL rating is 1 hour 1800F (UL rating has some overhead built in for typical house fire).

My Fort Knox weighs 1700lbs empty. I fortunately live just a few miles from where they are built. Nice folks.

Looking at the fire rating of a safe is important, but it's also important to consider where you are putting the safe. Putting it smack dab in the middle of a house will subject it to way more heat than placing it on an outside wall/corner. Putting it on a floor that will burn and allow it to fall a story or two is way worse than putting it on a concrete slab. If you are putting it in a basement, elevate it a little so the FD doesn't drown it and water damage everything.

I have a safe in a concrete "bunker" that's basically a concrete room beneath my front porch. It would never be subject to much heat, even if my house burnt to white ash. Only the items in the bunker itself, which are not that much stuff to burn. Furthermore, if thieves were to push it on its side (assuming it wasn't bolted down), there isn't room to use a crowbar to get leverage on the door. I do live in an arid environment, so if I lived where it were more humid, I would need to contend with the moisture in what is basically a cellar.

My point is that there are things you can do to help your safe do its job.