This is the first home now I’ve owned where I don’t have a clearly defined property line on my one side as that is an open lot there. I’d like to be able to figure out this line for a future fence but am kind of stumped. I know your deed usually has this spelled out but this is what I found on the deed, circa 1950 or so, and can’t make head or tails of this mumbo-jumbo. Should I instead maybe get a surveyor?

In order to get a permit to put in a fence you are going to need a survey. See if you can find a small post, or nail (a marker) in concrete where the corner of the property is on each side. Here in Florida the survey needs to be fairly recent to pull a permit and a survey usually costs $300-400 for a normal lot.

To try to determine the property line yourself on that description would be impossible as 1 degree of difference would put you at least a 1' away from where the property line should be.

edited to add: If you bought the property with a mortgage, a survey was DONE when you purchased the property. Try to find it if you can or who did it and have them print out several copies for you.

You really need to hire a surveyor to locate the existing corners and, if they can't be found, to re-set them. It's an annoying cost but far less than removing a fence that is a few inches off.

Do you have a cheap metal detector? There might be a piece of re-bar, or something else driven into the ground at the property corner. It should have a cap with the name of the surveyor (if it exists).

Best was for sure is to hire a surveyor though.

The deed spells it out exactly. What you need are maps showing the calls and distances.

You can lay it out on the ground approximately. The description doesn’t refer to survey markers, placed by a surveyor. Maybe it has not been done.

Maybe the local tax assessor has plats of each parcel. Maybe the title company has them.

You received a title policy when you bought the property, likely. Look at that. The companies I worked for put a map or plat depicting the property with every policy, or meant to.

When you purchased the property, which I assume is recently, didn’t the title company survey the property and provide a copy to you in the closing documents? I’d start with them.

Just had my property reshot by a surveyor.

The first thing they did was to sent 2 helpers out with a metal detector out to find the old pins.

Having done that, the surveyor at some point came out and reshot it and found that the original pins were off 2-5 feet.

I had to have it done as the property next to mine was recently surveyed and it showed my back fence was 9 ft on the other property at one point.

The new survey shows it is only about 5 ft on the other property in one corner.

So my property is not squared off in the back like the fence guy thought it was some 29 yrs ago.

Have it surveyed, but it cost me over $1K,

quote:

Originally posted by tanner:
When you purchased the property, which I assume is recently, didn’t the title company survey the property and provide a copy to you in the closing documents? I’d start with them.

In many states, the custom is to have a survey as part of every transfer. Other states rarely do so as a custom. The title companies don’t get involved in the surveying, in my experience, although the survey will be of interest. Standard coverage title policies do not cover matters which would be discovered by a correct survey.

Hire a surveyor. He can set pins for you. Is this property platted? Look at the plat to see if you have any easements on your property that would restrict your fence or fence material in any way. Easements may or may not be shown on the plat. Some easements are added by separate document after the plat is recorded. A surveyor should also help you in finding those easements if such exist.

Having bought (3) /sold (3) homes in MN - a survey was never done on any of those properties since they were all established (the newest was built in 1910) homes and neighborhoods.

At our current property I wish we would have because the city permitting office thinks that the property lines are not where they actually are (based off the scientific google maps satellite screen cap - our lot is not uniform and they're just plopping a rectangle on it) and they no longer have the survey that was done for the garage that was built 5 years ago (I don't since we took ownership only a year and a half ago)... the garage that would be 1ft over the property line if it is where they think it is vs the 15ft away based on an old wooden post with an orange top.

So I have to pay for a survey so I can put up my fence.

Yeah, title companies do not survey properties. They will, however, require them for a specific reason and most always require them for an extended coverage policy.

Here in PA surveys are not required when a property is purchased or sold.

Check Google maps in the default layer. Property lines are there and you should get a rough idea of where to start your search for pins or points listed on the deed.

Just ask Mrs. Grater and Mr. Stauffer where their property lines are, thence ye shall be knownce wherest thou boundaries lie.

quote:

Originally posted by phydough:
Just ask Mrs. Grater and Mr. Stauffer where their property lines are, thence ye shall be knownce wherest thou boundaries lie.

Ha! I doubt if their children are even still alive.

Well, you start over yonder, then you come this way a lil bit. Just before that big tree you turn right and keep going for a ways. Take another right just before old man Stauffer's place. Wave to Mrs. Stauffer. Stop in for a bit and she might have pie.

quote:

Originally posted by Oz_Shadow:
Well, you start over yonder, then you come this way a lil bit. Just before that big tree you turn right and keep going for a ways. Take another right just before old man Stauffer's place. Wave to Mrs. Stauffer. Stop in for a bit and she might have pie.

I made a steady, occasionally opulent, living in my early lawyering days from legal descriptions prepared apparently in just thst fashion.

quote:

Originally posted by JALLEN:

quote:

Originally posted by Oz_Shadow:
Well, you start over yonder, then you come this way a lil bit. Just before that big tree you turn right and keep going for a ways. Take another right just before old man Stauffer's place. Wave to Mrs. Stauffer. Stop in for a bit and she might have pie.

I made a steady, occasionally opulent, living in my early lawyering days from legal descriptions prepared apparently in just thst fashion.

California is township range surveying as is most of the west and the OP is describing metes and bounds, Pennsylvania, and the Eastern U.S. Which would you say was the most opulant for an attorney?
Given Ca. land scandals, fraud, and schemes I would suspect Ca., but we know fraud and schemes exist everywhere! I did a lot of surveying, replaying, boundry dispute, etc. for and engineering and surveying firm in CA. a long time ago. Was always amazed when old surveys, and titles fell apart and the attorneys were given the survey results to resolve! Sometimes nobody was happy! Spanish land grants were interesting and then how the grant was divided over time, or maybe not just taken!

If you want the truth, get it surveyed by a professional surveyor. He will set property pin or at least tie it to an existing monument. Chances are that deed doesn't close and may have been written by an attorney. Attorneys are good at the legal mumbo jumbo, but typically proper deed descriptions that actually close are not one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
This is the first home now I’ve owned where I don’t have a clearly defined property line on my one side as that is an open lot there. I’d like to be able to figure out this line for a future fence but am kind of stumped. I know your deed usually has this spelled out but this is what I found on the deed, circa 1950 or so, and can’t make head or tails of this mumbo-jumbo. Should I instead maybe get a surveyor?

according to the title your property is 150x55, square and property lines are parallel.

imagine the compass, N-S-E-W with each quarter divided by 90 degrees. with a magnetic compass, determine N at the first corner, from the North line, turn 68 3/4 degree (use a drawing compass) to the west of north 150 feet. this should put you in the middle of an alley behind your house and your back yard neighbor. again from North turn 21 1/4 degrees east, 55 feet, this should be between your house and the next door neighbor. (68 3/4 + 21 1/4 degrees = 90 degrees or a square corner). follow the next corner south and east 150 feet thence South and west 55 feet and you should be back where you started. I think the new iPhone compass can give you an idea of direction.

Look at your county registrar of deeds. there may be an newer survey property description, and a map that is available on line.

if this fails, or you do not understand, call a surveyor as recommended previously.

johnr