I did some Googling and I am clear on the concept that the installer is very important, and the brand is less so. That said, assuming you find a few (seemingly -- as far as I can ascertain) qualified sources,.. I have a few variables left to make decisions upon.

I should note that the way my house was designed (multi-level) in 1962, I need two furnaces and two ACs. I've explored overcoming that, but have decided it is simpler to stay with dual systems.

Efficiency rating: I live in a place that I would really only use the AC maybe 4 to 6 weeks tops a year. I can open the windows and get a nice breeze from the woods most of the rest of the summer and really, the heating season is by far the main concern here as it is (seemingly) endless. So I'm leaning toward going a little cheaper on the AC and getting 13 seer instead of 16. My house is not the best insulated with its vaulted ceilings and many bug-eye recessed lights. So I think a higher efficiency furnace makes sense. Maybe 96%. Sound reasonable?

1. Most of my questions are around the buzzwords on the quotes I've gotten. 1 stage vs. 2 stage. Variable speed blowers. What do I want here, and why? I think I wants variable speed right? Is that the same as DC blowers?

2. Brand is also a question. I get that it's "less" important than the installer, but that said, I still have some options. Rheem, Bryant, Amana, Carrier and Payne. Pretty much each vendor quoted one brand. I just got a lot of quotes.

3. Finally waranty. I'm assuming maybe one repair or maybe two per decade. I had none at my last house on a new system I put in. It lasted 15 years trouble free. So i'm leaning toward not worrying about big warranties (especially since they require annual serving by the vendor). But I don't know if high efficiency furnaces are less reliable.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: r0gue,

I'd consider going two stage furnace at least.

Another option is dual fuel, HP with a gas furnace. It's not a ton more money up front, but is way more efficient heating on mild days.

Factory warranty is fine, hx on furnace will be 15yrs plus most likely. Correct installation upfront being more important.

Do you plan to move soon....or in the next few years?

Variable speed for sure. Fan-on operation will be very cheap to circulate the air you've already heated. VS blowers should already be mated to a 2- or 3- stage gas valved furnace. You'll have quiet operation and a consistent even temperature.

A real plus is being able to add humidity in the winter or remove humidity in the summer independent of heating or cooling cycles, at a very low cost with the VS blower, if the unit is mated with the right thermostat.

I recently researched this issue for my home. I went with Carrier. I did a bunch of research and found that Coleman makes a very high quality unit. I don't intend to keep my house much longer, so I went with good rather than top end, with a 90 percent efficiency rating. With the energy issues you describe, I don't know that higher efficiency will help you much. Over the last few years, I replaced windows, added insulation, replaced a garage door, etc and got my energy bills down to about a third of what they were when I moved in. It was expensive up front, but the monthly "dividend" from the energy bills really paid off. You might also talk to your energy provider. Many companies people that can make recommendations for you based on your needs.

https://www.furnacecompare.com...op-rated-series.html

I have been in the industry for 20 years this year, and my thoughts are as follows.

I have learned it is best to keep it simple. The more that can go wrong will. Also the higher technology you have the more it will cost to repair and replace, and less likely any given tech will have it on his vehicle.

Also, I do not believe you will ever see a return on your investment on the higher efficiency units. They all have about a 12-15 year lifespan, and will likely need repair at least once in that time.

Better to go with more insulation in your attic.

13 seer for AC for you sounds great, and a 96% furnace sounds good as well providing your duct work is sized properly. If not the installer may need to downsize your furnace a bit as they are very efficient and run hot on chocked duct.

2 stage fine.

If your motor goes out, $1-300 depending on your tech to replace.

Variable speed... 700-900 for motor, and another 500-1000 for the drive. Both are more finiky with power issues.Going out once looses any savings you made years earlier. Also not likely tech has one bouncing around his truck.

Most equipment comes in bottom of line contractor grade, with 5 year parts warranty. Next grade up has 10 year parts. Go with the 10 Year.

Reputable installer is most critical.

I don't have an issues with any brands you mentioned, but think you will pay more for carrier and their parts. Heil "ICP" has same part numbers in most cases and is 1/3 the cost. Common in my area of Virginia.

Hope that helps.

Doug

FYI, I would never had recommended Goodman, as they were very cheap and extremely contractor grade.

However in recent years they were bought out by Daikin. Daikin outsold Carrier Trane and York combined worldwide beginning 3 years ago. They bought Goodman for their distribution in the USA.

Daikin has poured a tremendous amount of money into Goodman, and the quality has come up substantially.

I hate Daikin, from a service and reliability standpoint, but they are a game changer in the US. Will be curious to see HVAC transformation in next 20 years.

I work for Carrier corporate, Daikin is a dirty word lol
My house has a 2yr old Goodman 13seer mated to a 90pct furnace, zero problems so far.
I bought this before my current job.
In southern zones, 14seer is minimum you can buy, I'm with poster above, 13 seer is fine where available.

Ductless is becoming more prevalent for basement/bonus rooms, or to fix a problem area on a vastly undersized unit

I recently had a new system installed. My situation may be different than yours, but I went with a Carrier system, 80% efficiency furnace and 13 seer condensing unit. My decision was based on the fact I won't live in the house for more than 5 years and would never recoup the investment for a high efficiency unit. I also kept it simple, single stage blower to reduce the complications. My house is a very basic tri-level with the basement used as storage. Having an electro-mechanical background, I wanted it simple. The contractor I chose was the cheapest of the many quotes I got and realized just how much mark up there is on equipment....even the second tier equipment. All the second tier equipment quotes I got were higher...and substantially so than the Carrier. And I like the idea of the 10 year warranty that can be passed onto whoever buys the house. My old furnace was ~1980 vintage, so even though my new one is "only" 80% efficient, it'll still be way better than what it replaced.

Also, back when (then) Donald Trump started making America great again, helping to create jobs, Carrier was one of his first victories. I said to myself then, I want to give Carrier my business.

We have been building highly efficient homes for almost 35 years in the mid Atlantic so we are not to far from you in PA.

I have in my house, and install in the homes we build, a heat pump with a gas (propane) back up. It is common for us to install multiple systems in our houses depending on their particular design.

I would also reccomend a unit in the 15 SEER range with a 10 year warranty. Our analysis indicates that this is the most cost effective system to put in your home. 13 SEER is code minimum and that's where you'll find more of the "contractor grade junk".

We use primarily Trane but that is another discussion.

I will also strongly second the increase your insulation values in your attic. Up there you should have a minimum of R-49. It's cheap and requires no maintenance!

quote:

Originally posted by 6guns:
Do you plan to move soon....or in the next few years?

No plans to move.

quote:

Originally posted by Fredward:
With the energy issues you describe, I don't know that higher efficiency will help you much.

I would think the less insulation, the more important it is that your furnace be efficient to replace the lost heat.

quote:

Originally posted by Dreamerx4:
Better to go with more insulation in your attic.

Would if I could. Half the house is vaulted ceilings. The other is a very low pitch roof. Can barely move up there, and can barely access it through the little attic hole. Maybe I can get some blown in some day. I know I gotta do something about those bug eye can lights. The leak air like crazy.

Rogue, we had the bug eye lights in our ranch house. Even with wood boxes specifically built to cover them in the attic (I built them), we had heat loss. Our solution was to remove them and have a second layer of sheet rock installed over the whole ceiling. Then added insulation where needed. Replaced the eye balls with track lighting. Much more flexibility in where we can have lights.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris42:
Rogue, we had the bug eye lights in our ranch house. Even with wood boxes specifically built to cover them in the attic (I built them), we had heat loss. ....

The half of the house that has the bug eyes has no attic at all. It is vaulted ceiling and there sort of "is what there is" between the sheet rock and the decking and asphalt ceiling. Maybe the total thickness is 12 inches of distance, and I'm assuming the internal gap is 7 or 8, and that the insulation is around that thick -- maybe 5.

Same advice my buddy gave me when he installed mine (AirTemp). Go with lowest seer, replace more often. I used the AirTemp brand because he's a dealer or servicer and he could honor the 10yr warranty himself. Lower seer/efficiency because of lower cost. You will be hard pressed to ever recoup your money on the higher efficiency units, plus more moving pieces to fail.

I still ended up saving over $150 per month on A/C costs during the summer. My inefficient unit will pay for itself in 3.5 years.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:
Go with lowest seer, replace more often.

Thanks Jesse, that's my plan for sure. Hell, I'm buried in trees (shade) and only use the thing a few weeks a year.

Re: Variable Speed and Two Stage --- Found this info. This was good.

http://www.hannabery.com/variable-speed-info.shtml

When selling Carrier, if a customer got variable speed, at a minimum I'd match it with a "Performance Series" thermostat (we'd call it a thermidistat). It will sense humidity as well as temperature, and have a great affect on interior comfort. This is now available as a Wifi-enabled model (not linked).

http://www.carrier.com/residen...rmostats/tp-prh01-b/

http://www.lennox.com/buyers-g...lossary/thermidistat

Out west friends have a package unit on their roof with a loud single-speed blower. The duct work in that rancher is so ill-designed I'd usually switch operation to "Fan-On" every night, plus during the day sometimes.

The HVAC system in your home should provide you with reliable, efficient comfort.

Reliability = Quality Installation. As you already know, find a seasoned/reputable installer.

Efficiency = best bang for the buck while not going overboard for your area. This requires temperature data and local utility cost for each of the fuel sources (Nat, LP, Electric and Fuel Oil).

Depending on your utility rates, a 13 SEER air conditioner is probably the right selection. Getting a payback with a higher SEER unit requires high cost of electric and/or a very long cooling season. The long season is out (for your area), so the only thing left is the cost of electricity?

Since you have a long heating season, I would recommend at least a 95+% furnace. Having a home with high infiltration and poor insulation only begs for a high efficient furnace. Since the home has a higher heat loss, the unit will be burning more fuel, so it will save you more money per year.

Example:

$1000 per yr. with an 80% furnace lets $200 dollars go up the chimney. That leaves you with $800 to heat the home.

To get the same $800 of heat in the home with a 96% furnace, it only requires a yearly cost of 833.33.
Saving you $166.66 per yr.

Say your home is not insulated and is drafty as a cardboard box and cost $2000 per yr. Now that high efficient furnace will be saving you $333.33 per yr.

No need to let your hard earned money go up the chimney!

Comfort = getting a properly sized unit for the space. 2-stage or variable heat with a variable speed/DC blower.

Your Buzz Words

Single stage = high heat every time the furnace kicks on. Like flooring the accelerator every time you take off until you get up to speed. Then braking once you're there to slow down.

Two stage = high heat and low heat. For proper 'comfort' operation, requires a two stage thermostat. When the house temp drops, the unit fires on low. Bringing the temperature up slower. This is useful when the outside temps are mild, as the house requirements are less. If the temperature continues to drop inside the home (when its bitter cold outside), the unit will then switch to high fire to compensate for the higher load requirements. As the home is heating up and gets near the set point, the unit will revert back to low fire and keep running. **Think cruise control.

Longer run times equate to better efficiencies. Just as longer trips gets your car better fuel mileage. On/off operation is never efficient. **Think properly sized equipment. Too big of equipment will have short run times.

The comfort comes from the narrower temp swings. Since now you're heating the space with a heat setting which is closer to the actual heat loss. When the unit now shuts down, there's less residual heat left in the heat exchanger, so it doesn't over shoot the thermostat setting as far as a single stage unit. **Proper size again also helps.

Variable speed blowers offer comfort while saving you money. As constantly moving the air within the home will even out the temperatures from room to room. More noticeable in homes with poor ducting systems. **Proper size again helps.

Forget the cost of a blower motor repair. Most furnaces have a 10 year warranty (most require registration). You can always replace the variable speed blower with a less efficient, more cost effective blower when the time comes. And the cost of replacements are coming down compared to the earlier models.

Something you'll not see me talking about very often is personal choices on equipment.
I dislike louvered panels on condensers (more maintenance)... Rheem, Trane, AmStd, Goodman, etc. They tend to plug up with debris more often than an open coil design, which can naturally be rinsed off by rain.
Bryant, Carrier and Payne are all manufactured by Carrier, owned by UT United Technologies. Payne is the entry/builder grade while Bryant and Carrier are reserved for Dealers only (for residential).
Another side of UT is ICP International Comfort Products, which include: Arcoaire, Comfortmaker, Day&Night, Heil, Lincoln, Tempstar, KeepRite and a few others. Nowadays, the same as the Carrier line with a different cabinet/badge.

For optimal savings, look at either a Heat Pump system (electric supplemental/backup heat) or a Dual Fuel system (gas fired backup heat).

To wrap things up, high efficient equipment is as reliable as cheaper equipment if sized, installed and set-up to operate with-in the manufactures specifications. Run from anyone who says high efficient furnaces are trouble.

...

quote:

Originally posted by Excam_Man:...

THAT was a GREAT post! Thank you.

I've gotten 6 quotes, and with this information, I've eliminated the cheap guy who wanted to do 80% in the location that would be hard to re-run a new PVC exhaust, and I've settled in on the 13 seer.

I'm a little worried because the remaining companies (all reputable and with solid references and seemingly great and intelligent people) have quoted systems with variation in tonnage for the AC and BTU for the furnace. Given that I have two systems, I'll display it this way.

80k + 80k and 3T + 3T (Carrier)
60k + 60k and 2.5T + 2.5T (Amana)
80k + 60k and 3T + 2T (Bryant -- I like this guy)

I got another guy that quoted Rheem but no BTU or Ton listed. Also a quote inbound with Rheem, not received yet.

My current systems are 80% efficient and have:
Input 66k/Output 53k & Input 88k/Output 71k

I'm not sure how many ton my AC is, but since I only had it on one side of the house, I'll be at a loss to compare. And besides, I can't be certain it was sized right anyway.

Is there a way for me to check their calculations. Seems odd that one company is sizing as big or bigger and yet the efficiency is much higher. So that's probably a warning flag, huh?