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Originally posted by Edmond:

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Originally posted by Mutiny:

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Originally posted by Edmond:
Now I have to get a 10mm Glock just in case I get attacked by a bear. At least that’s the justification I’ll use to my wife. Bear threat in Orlando? Yes!

I agree with your logic. I think I will try the same justification.

Might be easier to justify after the purchase than before the purchase.

As a lad I learned, “It is always easier to get forgiveness than permission.” Words to live by.

Didn’t notice there were two threads. Other one got closed.

I’m leaning toward Underwood 220 or 220 gr over Double Tap and Buffalo Bore. Unless it’s recommended to consider differently. I couldn’t find hard cast rounds from Speer or Hornady (my usuals).

Question: seems like I need to move to a heavier recoil spring. Any recommendations on weight and make? Also, stock barrel and guide rod okay? Not sure why stock isn’t good enough but maybe the 20sf was made with people rounds in mind and not hotter bear rounds.

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Originally posted by konata88:
Didn’t notice there were two threads. Other one got closed.

I’m leaning toward Underwood 220 or 220 gr over Double Tap and Buffalo Bore. Unless it’s recommended to consider differently. I couldn’t find hard cast rounds from Speer or Hornady (my usuals).

Question: seems like I need to move to a heavier recoil spring. Any recommendations on weight and make? Also, stock barrel and guide rod okay? Not sure why stock isn’t good enough but maybe the 20sf was made with people rounds in mind and not hotter bear rounds.

I personally wouldn’t worry about the recoil spring unless you plan to shoot a steady diet of the hotter Ammo. I don’t bother with the recoil spring personally as I mostly shoot blazer aluminum for practice then a mag or 2 of Underwood or buffalo bore (the difference between the 2 is a wash imo).

For reference I carry a g20 daily when out in the woods, I had one with me today while I hoped for a Hail Mary on the last day of moose season here.

The barre thing I think is because the rifling Glock uses can collect lead faster or something, I’ve also seen videos where heavier hardcast rounds tumble out of glock barrels. I have 3 g20s and use a kKM barrel in the gen4 that gets used in the woods the most.

I watched a hickock video. He had some rounds out of stock barrel that tumbled. Why do the heavier rounds tumble? And why is accuracy significantly better with the lone wolf barrel he used after the stock barrel?

If I understand what he was saying, I think he was suggesting that it’s because of the stock polygonal rifling vs the groove rifling in the after market barrel.

Watched another. Seems like 200gr worked fine with stock barrel without sacrificing ballistics.

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Originally posted by konata88:
I watched a hickock video. He had some rounds out of stock barrel that tumbled. Why do the heavier rounds tumble? And why is accuracy significantly better with the lone wolf barrel he used after the stock barrel?

If I understand what he was saying, I think he was suggesting that it’s because of the stock polygonal rifling vs the groove rifling in the after market barrel.

Watched another. Seems like 200gr worked fine with stock barrel without sacrificing ballistics.

Im the wrong guy to ask, I just hunt, I’m not a target shooter or a ballistics guy I just figured that the rifling stabilized the heavier bullets better, perhaps something akin to how rifles have specific twist rates which work better for different weights of bullets.

I’ve personally had the keyhole issue with the stock barrel but because of where I live, I want the heavier 220g over the 200g bullets so I just grabbed a KKM barrel and I’ve had no issues since.

I did buy a lone wolf alpha wolf barrel which wouldn’t reliably feed ANY Ammo, and it even locked the slide shut with a round in the chamber while I was working on getting it to cycle rounds. When I called lone wolf they were like “yeah we know about the problem, send it in, we’ll fix it”.....I figured if they know about it, why did it leave the shop like that so I just got a refund and got the KKM, I’m very happy with it.

Yea, I read a post that suggested twist rate (fast for stock, slow for k).

I’ll try both Underwood 200gr and 220gr in stock. If both work, great. If 220gr tumbles, I’ll need to figure out if 200gr is good enough (I think so) or if I should get a kmm to use 220gr.

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Originally posted by konata88:
Why do the heavier rounds tumble?

Longer bullets require faster twist rates to be stabilized than shorter bullets. That usually means heavier bullets require faster twist rates. That’s not usually something that becomes an issue with handguns, but it could if the barrel maker didn’t anticipate the type of ammunition that might be fired with a particular gun.

The type of rifling might also make a difference, I suppose. That’s not something I’ve ever read about, but again most discussion of bullet stability pertains to rifle bullets. What could be a factor with “polygonal” rifling is that it doesn’t grip softer bullets well enough to spin them properly. “Hard cast” unjacketed bullets are still mostly lead and are not as hard and resistant to deformation as bullets with gilding metal or copper jackets. If they just skid down the barrel without being spun properly then they would be much less stable.

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Originally posted by sigfreund:

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Originally posted by konata88:
Why do the heavier rounds tumble?

Longer bullets require faster twist rates to be stabilized than shorter bullets. That usually means heavier bullets require faster twist rates. That’s not usually something that becomes an issue with handguns, but it could if the barrel maker didn’t anticipate the type of ammunition that might be fired with a particular gun.

The type of rifling might also make a difference, I suppose. That’s not something I’ve ever read about, but again most discussion of bullet stability pertains to rifle bullets. What could be a factor with “polygonal” rifling is that it doesn’t grip softer bullets well enough to spin them properly. “Hard cast” unjacketed bullets are still mostly lead and are not as hard and resistant to deformation as bullets with gilding metal or copper jackets. If they just skid down the barrel without being spun properly then they would be much less stable.

In addition, polygonal rifling accumulates lead in the bore, when you shoot unjacketed ammo through them (IIRC, HK manuals recommend you not do this). I would imagine this can change the symmetry of the bullet in some cases, which could cause the projectile to tumble.

Apparently, the bear was not advised that only full power 10mm loads could kill him.

Thanks SF, Storm. I read on the webz that hard cast bullets do not cause fouling like softer lead bullets (that would typically be jacketed or something).

True? So hard cast bullets are GTG in Glocks except for heavier bullets (> 200gr) for which a different rifling is recommended?

I have multiple friends with 2nd homes in Tahoe. It’s pretty not if but when a black bear will come by and tear your trash pails up and if your lucky will break into your house. Especially ones that are not used for weeks or months at a time. I have a friend that showed up to his house and a bear had ransacked the pantry and fridge and then blessed his carpet with a big bear steamer. Ever see jars of mayo and ketchup etc spread ALL over your kitchen ? In Tahoe if they catch him in the act they relocated them way into the mountains. They are given a wide berth and move along up there. I haven’t heard of any attacks

CA voted to outlaw hunting of cougars about 30 years ago. But they come down out of the hills and patrol around the fence line did schools and even into residential neighborhoods. If local LE shoots one then there is a memorial vigil for it that last a week. Especially in Palo Alto

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Originally posted by konata88:
So hard cast bullets are GTG in Glocks except for heavier bullets (> 200gr) for which a different rifling is recommended?

“Hardcast” is a relative term that doesn’t, as far as I know, have a technical definition. Cast bullet hardness varies by the amount of alloying metal such as antimony that’s added to the lead that makes up most of the bullet. They are cast that way to help prevent lead fouling when bullets are driven at higher velocities from cartridges such as the 357 or 44 Magnums.

I am pretty certain, however, that they are not as hard as the copper or gilding metal alloy that’s used in bullet jackets. If someone says that a particular bullet would function properly and not cause any fouling problems in a Glock, I wouldn’t be in a position to dispute the claim. I would not, however, simply assume that merely because a bullet doesn’t leave lead fouling in a conventionally rifled barrel that it would be okay in a Glock. The rifling designs are different, and what might work in one might not work in the other.

As for bullet weight (length, actually), if an unjacketed bullet of one weight stabilizes properly and does not cause fouling in a Glock, but a heavier unjacketed bullet is not stabilized and tumbles in flight, then I believe the reason is due to the heavier bullet’s longer length and the fact that the barrel does not spin it at a high enough rate. That could be due to the rifling twist rate, and/or something about how the unjacketed bullet interacts with the polygonal rifling. There are ways of calculating whether a particular conventional rifling twist rate will stabilize a specific bullet. If someone went to the effort of gathering the data necessary for the calculation and determined that the Glock barrel should stabilize the bullet, but doesn’t, then that would support my guess that the polygonal rifling is also a critical factor in the issue.

Edited for proper word.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

Does anyone else find it strange that this guy’s account reads like a novel? I’m not disputing it happened, but the way it’s written it’s as if someone else was there watching the whole thing go down.

I haven’t yet seen one of these bear loads that wasn’t gas checked, so I’d think that lead fouling wouldn’t be a problem with these hot rounds. Whether they will stabilize in poly rifling is a separate concern.

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Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
I haven’t yet seen one of these bear loads that wasn’t gas checked, so I’d think that lead fouling wouldn’t be a problem with these hot rounds. Whether they will stabilize in poly rifling is a separate concern.

I think hickock mentioned something like that. I didn't / don't know what that means. But if this is the case, I can check w/ Underwood to see if the 200gr are gas checked. If so, then I should be GTG stock. Unless I really need 220gr then I'll need the KKM barrel.

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Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
I haven’t yet seen one of these bear loads that wasn’t gas checked, so I’d think that lead fouling wouldn’t be a problem with these hot rounds. Whether they will stabilize in poly rifling is a separate concern.

Another thing to keep in mind is....just how many of these things gs are you planning g to shoot??? At over a dollar a round, shooting a box of them for a function check makes sense but they aren’t going to be part of your regular practice sessions. I have a few mags of them and I’ve fired a box or 2 of them off but the rest of my practice is with practice Ammo such as blazer aluminum.

A box of the hardcast stuff shouldn’t gunk things up too much.

Yea. I was thinking 4 sets each in my six mags. Maybe alternating with my practice rounds - weak priv partisan. Generally comfortable with glocks OOB but Underwood is new to me. Also confirm that stock spring is okay with the heavier load. Can I get away with testing with fewer sets? 1-2 enough? 1 set, 6 mags, alternating rounds is 30 rounds.

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Originally posted by konata88:
Yea. I was thinking 4 sets each in my six mags. Maybe alternating with my practice rounds - weak priv partisan. Generally comfortable with glocks OOB but Underwood is new to me. Also confirm that stock spring is okay with the heavier load. Can I get away with testing with fewer sets? 1-2 enough? 1 set, 6 mags, alternating rounds is 30 rounds.

I do t see why you couldn’t get away with that, even with the heavier Ammo, the g20 is very comfortable to shoot, even my wife can take extended sessions with it and she’s generally recoil sensitive. I’d just make sure you get a box or so through without any issues and call it good.

I don’t know if I mentioned it but me and my hunting partners have found the underwood and buffalo bore to be nearly identical so in my opinion it’s 6 of one, half dozen of the other.

I've shot hundreds of rounds of 200gr "hard cast" through the factory barrels of my G29 and a G20 I used to have without any issues (Underwood and Buffalo Bore). I do make sure to clean them after each session of shooting those unjacketed rounds, but that's all I do.

I haven't even bothered with the 220gr rounds so far, putting that off until I get around to buying an aftermarket barrel, due to the tumbling issue.

The issue of hard cast lead in poly barrels is more myth than reality. I've shot a lot of lead through HK and Glock barrels, without any issues whatsoever, or any significant leading.

Anyone shooting lead should know the brinnel hardness of the lead, and it's easy enough to find out if leading is an issue in a particular barrel, simply by shooting it. Some would have the world believe that a lead bullet will cause the barrel to open a new dimension, or end time...but it's just a tube, and lead isn't really an issue.

I shoot coated bullets, which are lead with a coating, and have no deposit issues at all, even after thousands of rounds. Bare lead, too; it's just not a problem.

Soft lead and slow bullets and bullets that don't seat well (improperly sized) may be another matter, especially in cases in which the flame gets around the bullet.