quote:

Originally posted by LBTRS:

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Originally posted by Jeff Yarchin:

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Originally posted by bigdeal:

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Yarchin:

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Originally posted by bigdeal:

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Originally posted by LBTRS:
...recently tried Chewy's American Journey which is a very good food for the price.

Jeff, what do you know about this Chewy house brand? I could not determine specifically who makes it for them (an issue for me), but they did confirm via a phone call to customer service that Diamond is not involved in it. The different formulations get lots of positive reviews on their site, and the price is very good, but I'm not willing to commit to it based on those two attributes alone.

I'm not familiar at all. Sorry about that. Did you check Dogfoodadvisor.com?

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/?s=+American+Journey

Can't beat a 5 star rating, looks good!

Just bothers me that I can't determine who makes the darn stuff for them. And Chewy's customer service is tight lipped about it when asked which I also don't get.

By the way, you didn't comment on the Wellness Simple food I'm feeding now. How do you think it rates?

It's a good food but we think it is a bit high priced for what it is. No worries feeding it though.

Edited to add: Like you, I'd insist on knowing who makes the food.

Jeff,

Are you talking about the same thing? American Journey is $1.66/pound and can be had cheaper than that if you use autoship.

In comparison Fromm Four Star Grain Free is $3.02/pound.

American Journey is a super premium grain free food at an outstanding price. Why do you feel it is high priced for what it is?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

My mistake, I was referring to Wellness. Great food, higher priced than several alternatives that we sell well. I'm not familiar with AJ but it looks like a great food.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunset_Va:
My comment isn't so much about dog food content, but pricing. Years ago, Tractor Supply was my only source for the dog food I used. I would drive 45 miles to a Pet Smart store to buy manybags much cheaper.

Then Pet Smart and Petco opened stores close by. Bought from them over the years.

Now, in the past year Pet Smart prices have escalated so much, The local Tractor Supply is cheaper.

If I just had one dog, I would feed them either a raw diet or Taste if the Wild-raw. I feed my 2 Shiba Inu Taste of the Wild, the others, Purina Pro Plan Savor.

With 14 dogs, I just cannot afford Tast of the Wild for all of them. What other brands in the price range of Pro Plan have better ingredients?

I also got to TS, it is a little out of the way but it sames me $$$

Can I ask what brand you use?

taking your advise I googled-fu'd Kirkland and Dogfoodadvisor gives Kirklands Grain Free mix a solid 4 stars out of 5 with good protein, no corn fillers, rice, flaxseed, egg etc,

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com...-signature-dog-food/

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Yarchin:

quote:

Originally posted by dgrdvm:
Any one know what the actual definition of a by product is ? Or what is included in the AAFCO definition of say, “chicken”? Or that dog food advisor is run by a human dentist with no nutritional expertise and that site is commercially associated with Chewy ? Just “food” for thought

Thanks for posting. The problem with a by-product is that by definition it could be anything. It could be good or it could be sweepings from the slaughter house floor. "Meat by-products' could be roadkill.

Regarding Dogfoodadvisor.com, it's currently the best available resource that a dog owner has to research food. If you can recommend a better venue that would be awesome.

Uhhh,..... no.

Per the 2018 AAFCO manual, the resource that will be the official definition of any and all items included in animal feed, including pet food - " By product - secondary product produced in addition to the principal product". In general, the "principal product" is food for humans, so basically it is the edible parts we do not usually eat, such as guts and other organs. ( I know some people do eat those, but in general we eat the skeletal muscle). Road kill is not, in general, a production process, so no it would not be included, and even if you do not want to believe that, do you think that the pet food companies have a big enough, predictable source of road kill to use it as a production ingredient source ?
Sweeping from the production floor ? No, but I see the thought that again this would arguably mean the scrapes and trimmings. And that is a yes. If you think that the chicken breasts and steaks you see in grocery store are in pet food, you are mistaken. Meat producers sell people cuts to people stores, at a premium. The trimming may very well be in pet foods, but regardless of what you see on the bag, can or ad, that is not in pet food.
Ultimately, with the exception of the "not so common" actual food allergy, ingredients are really just the vehicles that bring the nutrients ( fat, protein, carbs, minerals, and vitamins ) that you actually need to thrive, so quality and digestibility are the important things. And interestingly there is no way to tell quality from an ingredient list - you would need digestibility number and a full nutrient analysis ( NOT the guaranteed analysis on the bag) and good luck getting that info when you call the company

As to a good website to help pet owners pick a food - I do not think there is a good one. So many new diets are on the market each year there is no way to keep up.
If you want to see a reasonable resource on line for pet nutrition, look at www.petnutritionalliance.org, "tools and resources", and recommended links ( esp the WSAVA toolkit, look at the " Savey Dog/Cat owners guide to nutrition on the internet " )

And I know this is a passionate topic, and I have no credibility as a small animal vet for 27 years ( we are all in the pocket of "big food") but the truth is as a scientist, we are trained to look at data to make a conclusion, and I know a lot of my fellow SF members are science based too, so look critically at the data, and if you do not know, dig deeper and ask questions. And recall that any website from a company that trashes everyone else and says how great they are has an agenda to sell stuff. Look at actual research if you can.

Sorry to open this can of worms, but as a vet we see tons of problems that are based from, or managed with, the correct diet, and I hear a lot of misinformation that makes me crazy

this is what i feed my boy https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...ages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Doc,

Thanks for taking the time to post in this thread. I’m not s scientist but I spend most of my time running a business with the goal of providing the best quality pet foods that we can to our customers

I hear what you are saying about by-products but I respectfully disagree about certain points that you making about them.

I am not going to eat, nor am I going to feed my dog a protein that I cannot identify. I won’t sell a food with unidentified proteins. That is what we choose to be as a pet store. Our customers want that and we fill that need as best as we can.

As a human if you go to a fine dining restaurant and order offal, you get offal. The menu or the waiter will tell you what it is specifically…. heart, kidney, intestine, etc. You won’t be ordering or eating ‘by-products’.

The most disturbing is ‘meat by-products’. One can probably figure out what chicken, beef, fish by-products are. Meat by-products, not so much. If it isn’t identified by the manufacturer it could be any protein from any source, no? My reference to roadkill was an analogy. I’m not suggesting that the companies drive around looking for roadkill or deceased animal to toss in the pot but if it isn’t identified an unscrupulous dog food maker could by definition be using these ingredients.

Are you familiar with Blue Ridge Beef?

I am choosing not to feed my dogs or sell other dog’s food with by-products. I want the protein to be identified. Forgive me for saying this may not be science but to us it is common sense. We have a Vet (on most Saturdays) on our team. Our manager was a Vet Tech before she came to our store 10 years ago. We aren’t relying just on information from the manufacturers. It requires constant learning.

quote:

Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by Sunset_Va:
My comment isn't so much about dog food content, but pricing. Years ago, Tractor Supply was my only source for the dog food I used. I would drive 45 miles to a Pet Smart store to buy manybags much cheaper.

Then Pet Smart and Petco opened stores close by. Bought from them over the years.

Now, in the past year Pet Smart prices have escalated so much, The local Tractor Supply is cheaper.

If I just had one dog, I would feed them either a raw diet or Taste if the Wild-raw. I feed my 2 Shiba Inu Taste of the Wild, the others, Purina Pro Plan Savor.

With 14 dogs, I just cannot afford Tast of the Wild for all of them. What other brands in the price range of Pro Plan have better ingredients?

I also got to TS, it is a little out of the way but it sames me $$$

Can I ask what brand you use?

As stated in my posting , Pro Plan Savor.

quote:

Originally posted by Sunset_Va:

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Originally posted by Kevmo:

quote:

Originally posted by Sunset_Va:
My comment isn't so much about dog food content, but pricing. Years ago, Tractor Supply was my only source for the dog food I used. I would drive 45 miles to a Pet Smart store to buy manybags much cheaper.

Then Pet Smart and Petco opened stores close by. Bought from them over the years.

Now, in the past year Pet Smart prices have escalated so much, The local Tractor Supply is cheaper.

If I just had one dog, I would feed them either a raw diet or Taste if the Wild-raw. I feed my 2 Shiba Inu Taste of the Wild, the others, Purina Pro Plan Savor.

With 14 dogs, I just cannot afford Tast of the Wild for all of them. What other brands in the price range of Pro Plan have better ingredients?

I also got to TS, it is a little out of the way but it sames me $$$

Can I ask what brand you use?

As stated in my posting , Pro Plan Savor.

Sorry, missed that

Any recommendations for a “dental” pet food? Our pups had their teeth cleaned recently (significant tarter build up on my nearly 2yo lab) and they recommended using Royal Canin Dental 1/2 and 1/2 with their regular food. I just looked at the ingredient list of this food, and #1 is Brewers rice, then chicken by-product meal, brown rice, and corn. Gluten is an ingredient unto itself... They don’t seem to have been terribly affected thus far - but it is expensive for what appears to be crappy food that is just made into big kibbles they have to crunch on.

Steve’s real food branded raw food is what we feed our three (soon to be four...tomorrow!) dogs and they are doing great on it. Even our picky female boxer eats it every meal, and it happens to be one of the very best dog foods out there.

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Originally posted by barndg00:
Any recommendations for a “dental” pet food? Our pups had their teeth cleaned recently (significant tarter build up on my nearly 2yo lab) and they recommended using Royal Canin Dental 1/2 and 1/2 with their regular food. I just looked at the ingredient list of this food, and #1 is Brewers rice, then chicken by-product meal, brown rice, and corn. Gluten is an ingredient unto itself... They don’t seem to have been terribly affected thus far - but it is expensive for what appears to be crappy food that is just made into big kibbles they have to crunch on.

Anything your dog could chew on will help. We like toys from Planet Dog, bully sticks and raw beef leg bones for this. You can also brush your dogs teeth (with toothpaste specifically for dogs) with a finger brush. There are water additives like Tropiclean that reduce tartar. You add it to their water. It has no flavor or smell.

I'm not going to step on your Vet's toes but if it were me after a dental cleaning I'd try providing plenty of chews and I'd brush my pups teeth once a week to see if it takes care of the issue before I'd use a prescription food, especially with the ingredients you describe.

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Originally posted by PR64:
What do you think about Wellness brand for small breeds?

I've been feeding it to my Pug for years.

Wellness RawRev with their shredded medley is what we have been feeding our little girls for years also. They love it.

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Originally posted by Jeff Yarchin:
Doc,

Thanks for taking the time to post in this thread. I’m not s scientist but I spend most of my time running a business with the goal of providing the best quality pet foods that we can to our customers

I hear what you are saying about by-products but I respectfully disagree about certain points that you making about them.

I am not going to eat, nor am I going to feed my dog a protein that I cannot identify. I won’t sell a food with unidentified proteins. That is what we choose to be as a pet store. Our customers want that and we fill that need as best as we can.

As a human if you go to a fine dining restaurant and order offal, you get offal. The menu or the waiter will tell you what it is specifically…. heart, kidney, intestine, etc. You won’t be ordering or eating ‘by-products’.

The most disturbing is ‘meat by-products’. One can probably figure out what chicken, beef, fish by-products are. Meat by-products, not so much. If it isn’t identified by the manufacturer it could be any protein from any source, no? My reference to roadkill was an analogy. I’m not suggesting that the companies drive around looking for roadkill or deceased animal to toss in the pot but if it isn’t identified an unscrupulous dog food maker could by definition be using these ingredients.

Are you familiar with Blue Ridge Beef?

I am choosing not to feed my dogs or sell other dog’s food with by-products. I want the protein to be identified. Forgive me for saying this may not be science but to us it is common sense. We have a Vet (on most Saturdays) on our team. Our manager was a Vet Tech before she came to our store 10 years ago. We aren’t relying just on information from the manufacturers. It requires constant learning.

Thank you for the reply Jeff, and I respect your position as a guy in the "trenches" trying to work through the morass that can be pet foods.

As to your rebuttal to on protein sources you can not identify, I agree that this can be a concern, especially if there is a perceived or real food allergy. But know that pet food is a highly regulated industry, and the terms used do have specific definitions. Obviously, "beef" is beef, "pork" is pork, "chicken" is chicken, but "poultry" can be chicken, turkey or duck, or some combination. "Meat" is defined as coming from slaughtered beef, swine sheep or goats, or a combination thereof. Otherwise, it must be listed ( horse will be listed as "horsemeat" )
Scruples have little do do with this - it is about meeting a nutrient profile at a needed cost and availability.

I also am on board with food companies being transparent in what they do, and by relying on the ingredient list you are indeed placing a great deal of faith in the manufacturer to meet what they say. Pet food, while it has a great deal of regulation, is somewhat self policed, so companies can and do get away with irregularities. It is often the smaller companies, as the testing can be expensive, and the bigger companies that will call you out will not bother to go after a small manufacturer. But the big guys will have issues too - Purina successfully sued Blue for false claims in their diets recently.
If you are interested, there are also some papers from some vet school nutrition services that id'ed, via ELISA testing, numerous unreported protein sources in many supposed limited OTC dog foods. So again, the ingredient list on the label is a very poor source of information - no info on quality of the nutrients, and often not complete or accurate. Ask the company for a real, complete nutrient analysis of the foods you want to feed. If they do not have that or will not share that, don't you think that should be a concern ? There is a list of questions that the American Animal Hospital Association will have client ask a pet food manufacturer to help gauge the quality and the ethics of the company you may be interested in. I will be happy to share them with you.

I am familiar with Blue Ridge Pet Beef foods, but unfortunately it is because the vet community has been notified of multiple recalls for Salmonella and Listeria contaminated foods, and the confirmed deaths of 2 kittens in March of this year on the "Kitten Grind" ( not a good name !)

Common sense is always a good thing, in all aspects of life, and my common sense drives me to accept data driven evidence when making a recommendation, especially in an emotionally charged arena such caring for our pets. The internet has a lot of info, both helpful and not, and I agree we need to learn every day. The challenge is to look objectively and not just find sites and opinions that mirror our own and reinforce our position. I can say this morning I had a client ask about a food I would have reflexively dismissed, but they company did provide a nutrient analysis and lo, it actually looked pretty good, and I told then so. Not a big 3 pet food, but they seem to do it right, based on what I saw.

I know I will likely not sway you away from the opinions you currently have, but please try and look objectively and with clear eyes at the foods you recommend, and gather as much useful information as you can.

A am done with the soap box here, so the last words are all yours.

Unless I am misremembering my shows, Mike Rowe did a segment on Dirty Jobs where he did go out picking up roadkill and dead livestock and processed them for byproduct. And it was headed for animal food. Meal and byproduct are nowhere near what we think it might be, and I’m not talking about in a good way.

quote:

Originally posted by onegeek:
Unless I am misremembering my shows, Mike Rowe did a segment on Dirty Jobs where he did go out picking up roadkill and dead livestock and processed them for byproduct. And it was headed for animal food. Meal and byproduct are nowhere near what we think it might be, and I’m not talking about in a good way.

Meal can be okay as long as it's identified. All meal is, is a protein that has been dehydrated to reduce bulk, which increases the protein content.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Yarchin:

quote:

Originally posted by barndg00:
Any recommendations for a “dental” pet food? Our pups had their teeth cleaned recently (significant tarter build up on my nearly 2yo lab) and they recommended using Royal Canin Dental 1/2 and 1/2 with their regular food. I just looked at the ingredient list of this food, and #1 is Brewers rice, then chicken by-product meal, brown rice, and corn. Gluten is an ingredient unto itself... They don’t seem to have been terribly affected thus far - but it is expensive for what appears to be crappy food that is just made into big kibbles they have to crunch on.

Anything your dog could chew on will help. We like toys from Planet Dog, bully sticks and raw beef leg bones for this. You can also brush your dogs teeth (with toothpaste specifically for dogs) with a finger brush. There are water additives like Tropiclean that reduce tartar. You add it to their water. It has no flavor or smell.

I'm not going to step on your Vet's toes but if it were me after a dental cleaning I'd try providing plenty of chews and I'd brush my pups teeth once a week to see if it takes care of the issue before I'd use a prescription food, especially with the ingredients you describe.

Perhaps there's something about the particular food you're currently using that's causing the tartar buildup? Maybe you can switch to something other than RC. I had a vet sell me some RC once for some issue my dog had, and I came to the same conclusion as you - the ingredients were crap. Maybe they were good at addressing the one specific problem, but they'd likely cause other health problems, over time.

I agree with Jeff. I'd much rather feed a quality, well balanced food and find ways of cleaning the dog's teeth.

Rope toys are another thing your dogs can chew on to clean their teeth. They're good for tug-of-war play, too. Also, my previous dog loved to chew on ice cubes, so I'd often give her a few after a meal to help clean her mouth (Edit to add: some say this carries the risk of breaking teeth). Be wary of antler chews; I had a dog break off and swallow a couple of shards, which caused barfing, uncontrollable squirts, and a $500 trip to the emergency hospital.

quote:

Originally posted by onegeek:
Unless I am misremembering my shows, Mike Rowe did a segment on Dirty Jobs where he did go out picking up roadkill and dead livestock and processed them for byproduct. And it was headed for animal food. Meal and byproduct are nowhere near what we think it might be, and I’m not talking about in a good way.

I swear I really wanted to be done here, but then I saw this.

It is possible that dead animals can be collected and used. The bodies can be rendered - a process where the carcass is cooked and dried, and can yield sterile, usable fats and meals ( usually a protein source) that can be used in pet foods, soaps, cosmetics, and wait for it... human foods ! That would be edible lards, and oils, including fish oils BTW.

Other disposal methods would be incinerating, which yields a residue that can be used on crops, or composting - self explanatory, or buried - not usually if infectious, and has some strict land requirements.

Good times.

So not likely they are scooped up and placed in a can.

https://www.aafco.org/consumers/what-is-in-pet-food

https://www.fda.gov/iceci/comp...manual/ucm074717.htm

Thank you Jeff on so much information.

I also appreciate you taking the time to help and inform us.

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Originally posted by Kevmo:

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Originally posted by Sunset_Va:

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Originally posted by Kevmo:

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Originally posted by Sunset_Va:
My comment isn't so much about dog food content, but pricing. Years ago, Tractor Supply was my only source for the dog food I used. I would drive 45 miles to a Pet Smart store to buy manybags much cheaper.

Then Pet Smart and Petco opened stores close by. Bought from them over the years.

Now, in the past year Pet Smart prices have escalated so much, The local Tractor Supply is cheaper.

If I just had one dog, I would feed them either a raw diet or Taste if the Wild-raw. I feed my 2 Shiba Inu Taste of the Wild, the others, Purina Pro Plan Savor.

With 14 dogs, I just cannot afford Tast of the Wild for all of them. What other brands in the price range of Pro Plan have better ingredients?

I also got to TS, it is a little out of the way but it sames me $$$

Can I ask what brand you use?

As stated in my posting , Pro Plan Savor.

Sorry, missed that

I tried several brands before settling on Pro Plan several years ago. But I don't think Pro Plan is the same as 7 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Cliff:

quote:

Originally posted by PR64:
What do you think about Wellness brand for small breeds?

I've been feeding it to my Pug for years.

Wellness RawRev with their shredded medley is what we have been feeding our little girls for years also. They love it.

I will make a bet....bet those beautiful Boston girls....Snore!