quote:

and the Chinese tour groups are extremely pushy

This is putting it mildly.

We were on the Jungfraujoch in Switzerland last year with hundreds of rude, pushy and inconsiderate Chinese tourists, blocking narrow walkways with their selfie sticks. Same thing in the cities/towns; they show no respect for the monuments, churches, etc. One Chinese tourist I saw had to get reprimanded twice for taking flash pictures in the Rijksmuseum. No freakin' clue.

It's getting worse every time we visit Europe.

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:

quote:

and the Chinese tour groups are extremely pushy

This is putting it mildly.

We were on the Jungfraujoch in Switzerland last year with hundreds of rude, pushy and inconsiderate Chinese tourists, blocking narrow walkways with their selfie sticks. Same thing in the cities/towns; they show no respect for the monuments, churches, etc. One Chinese tourist I saw had to get reprimanded twice for taking flash pictures in the Rijksmuseum. No freakin' clue.

It's getting worse every time we visit Europe.

This is true. The Chinese nationals are extremely rude. A sad trend. You must push back. Or, try to see the sights early or late in the day. This is a big problem and it will only get worse. The Japanese nationals are very polite and nice. The Chinese nationals are the problem. This is not a racist comment... It is a fact. This is not a comment about American Chinese folks. I know several American Chinese, and they agree with me.

Trip advisor also is very useful for finding rankings of attractions and restaurants.

Don't miss restaurants.

Rome - Dar Poeta - a small pizza place off the beaten path, mostly locals. Our taxi dropped us off and we had to walk a few blocks of alleys too close for cars. Awesome pizza.
http://darpoeta.com/

Florence - Il Latini - Awesome tuscan steak order by the kilo, large enough for the whole table.
http://www.illatini.com/

A few more eating tips.
1. Just order the house wine white or red. Very good, very cheap.
2. You will never be able to finish if you order the pasta primi and then an entree. Way too much food. Sharing with others will help if you want to get multiple courses.
3. Gelato is much better than traditional ice cream.

A few comments on Chinese tourists, since Mrs. Lee is from the Mainland and we have seen and done it all in Europe many times.

China is so damned crowded in most places, you simply have to be loud and pushy to get anything done. I haven't been to China in about seven years, but at that time queuing up was totally foreign to them. And that means you have to push and shout to get to the front of anything. It's a lot easier for foreigners in China, since they get a lot more latitude than if you're a local. But I've rarely met a less than totally polite and friendly Chinese person when I've taken the time to talk with them, even in English when I couldn't make it any farther in Chinese.

But I still hate crowds and generally don't like the kind of tourist attractions others like. I found all kinds of cool nooks and crannies off the beaten path in Venice, stuff no one else would even notice. I couldn't care less about St. Mark's or the stuff that attracts the masses. Check out the detail in some of the masonry on a generic street, look at the aristocrats' gravestones on the outer walls of churches. Note the dates, think about the effect the Black Death had on the population at that time, how the population was decimated, yet so many of the world's greatest artistic and architectural treasures were created then. Between building churches and burying bodies, there couldn't have been much unemployment back then. Some of favorite photos of Venice are from random alleys or tiny houses' front doors no one else would look at twice. There's a lot to see away from the crowds. Mrs. Lee just wants her photo taken in front of all the big attractions, and I don't think she's ever looked at the photos once we got home. But I look at my off the wall photos all the time.

So, how I do overseas: (I usually go for a longer amount of time.)

I always get a local SIM, and just have calls forwarded to a service, and check messages when on wifi/call back once on wifi.

Schwab bank account (No ATM Fees, Wall St. Journal exchange rates. Always select paying in local currency if offered an option.)

Second bank account, in case a card gets lost, etc

AMEX - only use if a problem w. everything else - very high fees, but very good service.

Pelican Storm case, with multi-colored zip ties holding it shut. (TSA locks are easy to pick, but baggage handlers, supposedly, aren't allowed sharps.)

Pacsafe backpack

stainless steel cable, for cabling the pelican case in the room.

padlocks for the pelican case, and the cable, in the room.

padlock for the packsafe back pack

shoe bags

clothing cubes

Toilet paper

2 pairs of comfortable shoes.

Cigars/bourbon can open a lot of social doors.

I like carrying a small Rite-in-Rain journal and a couple Pentel Graphgear 1000 pencils.

I’m guessing that you aren’t renting a car. If you are, please read up on the costly tickets if you enter the wrong zone in a city.

Italy is beautiful but is becoming less tourist friendly, especially the locations that you’re visiting, because why wouldn’t Italy try to discourage people from visiting and supporting its best industry. You can get ticketed for eating food from a vendor while walking around. In Venice, you can get ticketed or even kicked out for sitting in the wrong place. I’d recommend a google search as these are relatively recent laws/enforcement. One example is here. https://www.google.com/amp/s/t...med-at-tourists/amp/

Oh, and don’t forget to validate your train ticket before boarding. They are the very small unmarked yellow boxes. The fine print on the back of the ticket indicates that this is required (which of course you would read, right?). I didn’t and was talked down to by little Mussolini and fined pretty heavily.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
A few comments on Chinese tourists, since Mrs. Lee is from the Mainland and we have seen and done it all in Europe many times.

China is so damned crowded in most places, you simply have to be loud and pushy to get anything done. I haven't been to China in about seven years, but at that time queuing up was totally foreign to them. And that means you have to push and shout to get to the front of anything.

Mao's Cultural Revolution forced the population to eschew all habits of politeness and courtesy as being the hallmarks of the capitalists bourgeoisie, ergo, spitting, shoving, yelling, scrambling, reaching over/across, pointing all were allowed and encouraged...village behavior. After several generations, this was acceptable. I recall right after the change-over on a handful of trips to Hong Kong and Macua, friends would point out the person who was born/raised on the mainland, versus the person born/raised in HK by how they acted at a restaurant, store or, waiting for the bus/boat. The HK person was more versed in the Western norms of queuing up, politely asking questions or, requests, not shouting or, overtly pointing. Clearly those are generalities but, there's a marked difference.

quote:

I found all kinds of cool nooks and crannies off the beaten path in Venice, stuff no one else would even notice. I couldn't care less about St. Mark's or the stuff that attracts the masses. Check out the detail in some of the masonry on a generic street, look at the aristocrats' gravestones on the outer walls of churches. Note the dates, think about the effect the Black Death had on the population at that time, how the population was decimated, yet so many of the world's greatest artistic and architectural treasures were created then.

Well, those places are famous because they're cultural treasures and shouldn't be dismissed just because of their popularity and being loved to death, however to your point, get-in, take the picture and get-out. One of the joys I get a kick out of when traveling, particularly to Europe is, the what could've been, had the Dark Ages not arrived and the achievements of the Romans could've been better preserved, where could our evolution had gotten us. Things like architecture, creating an arch or, a dome, cement, certain forging methods...all lost during the Dark Ages, only to be rediscovered or, reverse engineered. How many centuries had to go by in Europe, that man wasted.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig Sauer Kraut:Italy is beautiful but is becoming less tourist friendly, especially the locations that you’re visiting, because why wouldn’t Italy try to discourage people from visiting and supporting its best industry.

Most people never visit but a handful of destinations so, much of Italy is untouristed, however I can see the frustration of Italian officials given the amount of stupidity that you see: Trevi Fountain in Rome as an example has at least 2-3 cops, constantly whistling at people, just to stop climbing up the fencing or, stepping into the fountain itself...all for that photo. It's a ridiculous circus, Three Coins in the Fountain and La Nolce Vita its not. Piazza Navona, there was trash from people who had eaten around the fountain and square but, never dumped it into the garbage cans not to mention how many spilled gelato's creating a mess, the perimeter around any gelateria is usually a mess because somebody doesn't know how to eat ice cream. Then there's all the cops around the St.Marks's Square trying to get people to knock-off feeding the pigeons.

Be very careful of pickpockets, most especially in Rome-- but everywhere. Best bet is to carry your passport, credit cards, cash in a belt with zippered compartment that you wear UNDER your tucked shirt. These are readily available on Amazon.

Something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Money-T...082&s=gateway&sr=8-7

As you head up north from Rome, I highly recommend a hilltop medieval town called San Gimignano in Siena. All I can say is that it is gorgeous, with stunning architecture, especially its ancient towers. This site does not do justice with its photos, but it gives you some idea:

https://www.discovertuscany.com/san-gimignano/

Your wife chose well. If only for the wine and food, you will have a great time in Italy.

I have lived and traveled throughout Asia and Europe, but the pickpockets in Rome are frigging magicians. Don't ask me how I know.

Being of Italian ancestry we have been there maybe half a dozen times.

Italians love children and will be glad to accommodate them in restaurants etc.

If you can get tickets early and hire a private guide for places like the Coliseum. You’ll be surprised at what you’ll learn. Go as early in the day as possible and take the afternoon off for just people watching and eating some gelato!



Enjoy!

quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee:
A few comments on Chinese tourists, since Mrs. Lee is from the Mainland and we have seen and done it all in Europe many times.

China is so damned crowded in most places, you simply have to be loud and pushy to get anything done. I haven't been to China in about seven years, but at that time queuing up was totally foreign to them. And that means you have to push and shout to get to the front of anything. It's a lot easier for foreigners in China, since they get a lot more latitude than if you're a local. But I've rarely met a less than totally polite and friendly Chinese person when I've taken the time to talk with them, even in English when I couldn't make it any farther in Chinese.

Part of traveling is to learn ahead of time what the cultural norms are and follow them. Putting your hands on people is not OK in the west and any jack ass can easily learn it and follow it.

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:
I've always liked this photo we took on our last trip to Venice. Taken while we were eating a late lunch on the Via Giuseppe Garibaldi.



There are two sets of prices for everything in Venice; those for the locals and those for the tourists.

So, where does the guy with the oar that sings sit?

Take a day trip from Rome if you can to Sorrento and the Amalfi Coast. Well worth it

Incredibly helpful advice, fellas, keep it coming. I sincerely appreciate every post.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:The HK person was more versed in the Western norms of queuing up, politely asking questions or, requests, not shouting or, overtly pointing. Clearly those are generalities but, there's a marked difference.

That just CAN'T be right, Sir!!! Are you seriously implying that the one hundred years of British rule and etiquette mores actually worked to their benefit, and that they are all the better for it?

Shame on you, Sir, and Fie.

Next thing you'll be saying that the British didn't get EVERYTHING wrong, after all.

(Irony off)

If this is your wife's bucket list you aren't missing the big stuff. it's been too long since I've been but here's my 2011 knowledge. I might have missed it but are you guys hitting these as a flight in, by rail or cruise? Definitely check out Rick Steve's guides by tv, podcast or book as that dude helped me have a great trip. Seriously his tips are great for stuff that will save you time money or get you into places you wouldn't have been because you didnt know about them.

I flew into Venice early morning, and it was quiet and peaceful saw the sights and everything was pleasant and relaxed....until about 3 cruise ships pulled up and dumped all the crowds you see in the pictures. Try to see it early or even better spend the night and hit it early before and after the cruise ships have gone. If you get there around the same time go hit St Mark's and the Doge's palace first and then when the crowds hit you can push out to the edges for a more relaxed time while everyone jams St Mark's.

Rome is one of my favorite places visiting wise. Get used to walking and learn the trains and you'll be fine. It's very a simple system and cheap for the train. The Roma pass let us know by a ton of lines which was worth it to see the Colloseum and a few museums. I hate crowds and still liked the Trevi fountain it's always packed though. The Vatican museum was still totally worth it to me and my wife who were pretty museumed out at that point. I don't think they allow bad food there so wander and eat anywhere. Check out Vatican city and if you can go all the way up the dome / Coppola (don't stone me I haven't had my coffee yet.) You might have to fight a weird vertigo / motion sickness as it slants hard (the stairs are flat but the walls are not) but it was a weirdly fun climb and the views were amazing. Gelato will make you crap on normal ice cream. You'll be amazed how much stuff you will just have to do a walk by on as there's literally pillars and columns laying about.

I've heard it you take the bus you run a great chance of getting pickpocketed. I didn't take it so I can't verify but there it is. We walked or took the train. I'd invest in one of those travel wallets or a shirt with a zippered chest pocket. I had someone try in France and they just hit up my pants pockets while my money credit card phone and copy of my passport were in my ZIPPERED chest pockets. It was artfully done and I barely noticed it at the time. It was one of those " .... Wait a second" things a few moments later and by then they were gone thankfully empty handed from me. I used my phone for all pictures and got a ton of great ones. We handed out a disposable camera for people to take pictures of us which avoids you having to birddog a foreign national on thier home turf.

It's been even longer since I've been to Florence so I'll defer to the other folks here. I remember liking it quite a bit.

Read up on some history about the areas if you can and I think you'll have a great time. It was great for me to see places I've read about and know a bit more about them when I got there. Have a great trip.

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:
There are two sets of prices for everything in Venice; those for the locals and those for the tourists.

Actually there are three: Venetians with the correct accent/dialect; other Italians: everyone else.

My wife as I 've stated before was in Italy for work for a total of 2 years stretched over 8 years. I got to go a few times and we learned a lot from her Italian co-workers about how not to be treated like a tourist. Small restaurants far from the big tourist attractions with have better food and more reasonable prices. Bologna has the best food by far and is worth some time on the way from Florence to Venice if possible. There are tourist attractions there but it's a working city - not a tourist city like the other three. May not be possible if this is your wife's trip but there are a lot of secondary and tertiary places to visit that are interesting and not crowded. This was one of the most interesting things I found in my travels while the wife was working.

Spent 3 weeks in Italy in 2005, went all over by rail. Thoroughly enjoyed myself! Good advice by all.

If you haven't firmed up your itinerary yet, I'd suggest Cinque Terra, five small towns along the Med coast up towards Genoa. You can't drive into the towns, and can only get between towns by rail (or foot, which I did). Absolutely beautiful


(Riomaggiore, my pic)

I did a LOT of walking while there. I went by "backpack" only, no suitcases.

The Rick Steves advice is good too. He says you'll have three major expenses - travel, lodging and gelato. I can confirm he is correct.

quote:

Originally posted by IntrepidTraveler:
You can't drive into the towns, and can only get between towns by rail (or foot, which I did).

or by boat which I did.

Lido,
We stayed at Hotel Villa Stella it was awesome. Can still be had for under $150 a night.

Rooms are small single queen but villa is awesome.

http://www.villastella.com/

Venice is incredibly dirty, smelly, and overrun with tourists.

If you travel by train there is a kiosk in the train station that will arrange hotel you just tell them what star one star two star etc... they will also call you a cab to get you there.

quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley:

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:The HK person was more versed in the Western norms of queuing up, politely asking questions or, requests, not shouting or, overtly pointing. Clearly those are generalities but, there's a marked difference.

That just CAN'T be right, Sir!!! Are you seriously implying that the one hundred years of British rule and etiquette mores actually worked to their benefit, and that they are all the better for it?

Shame on you, Sir, and Fie.

Next thing you'll be saying that the British didn't get EVERYTHING wrong, after all.

(Irony off)

The irony of the thread, when in Rome...
It was quite shocking that in a place where everyone (almost everyone at the time) all spoke Cantonese yet, those who crossed the bridge from the mainland, entered into a different world, yet, acted like they were back home. Almost every line I stood in, there was somebody lecturing, scolding, giving a piece of their mind to somebody else who had cut-the-line, rushed the counter, crowded the person in front of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Blackmore:

quote:

Originally posted by 229DAK:
There are two sets of prices for everything in Venice; those for the locals and those for the tourists.

Actually there are three: Venetians with the correct accent/dialect; other Italians: everyone else.

Bologna has the best food by far and is worth some time on the way from Florence to Venice if possible. There are tourist attractions there but it's a working city - not a tourist city like the other three.

Hush! Don't reveal all the good places! Bologna is one of my favorites, I once ate two dinners one night in Bologna. One was early, the other was very late...hanging out with some college kids.

The other rule about variable-pricing.....cafe's: there's the price for standing at the counter to drink your espresso, and a separate price for sitting down to enjoy your espresso.