Germany Rejects Zelensky’s ‘Victory Plan’ for Ukraine: ‘A Country at War Can’t Join NATO’

https://www.breitbart.com/euro...-war-cant-join-nato/

President Zelensky’s proposed ‘victory plan’ openly criticised by a NATO leader for the first time, as the possibility of the country joining the alliance while at war with Russia rejected out-of-hand by the German Chancellor.

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz used a television interview to make a surprisingly frank rebuttal to President Volodymyr Zelensky’s ‘Victory Plan’, the document the Ukrainian leader has been flogging around Western capitals, and which was made largely public for the first time last week.



Putting his rejection bluntly, Scholz said: “a country that is at war cannot become a NATO member”.

Zelensky’s Victory Plan, amounting to a condensed shopping list of long-standing Ukrainian asks, makes its key plank an “unconditional invitation right now” by NATO for the country to be admitted as a full member.

While NATO has generally been encouraging to Ukraine through the Russian invasion, with future membership after the war has finished, immediate membership has never been on the cards. Quite apart from other concerns about Ukraine’s fitness to meet NATO’s other standards for membership, the possibility that joining during a war would bring the rest of the alliance irreversibly into the conflict has been articulated.

Nevertheless, while the response to Zelensky’s much-vaunted Victory Plan has been decidedly cool — with one notable exception — his NATO allies haven’t publicly criticised it until now. Scholz broke that cordon, telling channel ZDF talk show Maybrit Illner: “I believe that it is very important to realise that a country that is at war cannot become a NATO member… Everyone knows that, there is no disagreement about it.”

Scholz said even starting membership talks so soon would be incorrect, given “with NATO, the invitation is usually linked to membership pretty quickly”, remarking “That is a process that is not pending now”. He said: “there is currently no need for a new decision”.

The German leader is “very serious” about preventing war between NATO and Russia, he said, stating on these issues “That is something I am very clear about and will not change my position”. And on the question of whether to allow Ukraine to use European long-range bunker-buster missiles; “I will not act rashly”.

These declarations do not mean, however, that NATO will make decisions for Ukraine over its head, he reassured. The German stated NATO members had reaffirmed this point in recent talks in Berlin, stating: “There will be no decision for Ukraine over Ukraine”.

These blunt remarks are not the first time Scholz has spoken out on Ukraine’s NATO membership requests, indeed, he has been one of the most outspoken in the alliance on the question. As reported back in May 2023, Scholz walked out of a G7 meeting in Japan to declare Ukraine couldn’t join NATO even if its members agreed, given — as he claimed — it didn’t meet the alliance’s membership requirements.

For the time being, the German Chancellor had said, the important issues were securing Ukraine’s borders, and agreeing future post-war security guarantees. As for NATO membership: “NATO’s criteria include a whole series of conditions that Ukraine cannot currently meet.” As reported at that time of what those requirements may be:

In 1997, the American State Department laid out a list of five “minimum requirements” for NATO membership candidates, which included “all of Europe’s emerging democracies that share the alliance’s values and are ready to meet the obligations of membership.”

The requirements demand that a prospective candidate upholds democracy, including “tolerating diversity”, is “showing progress” towards a developing a market economy, has a military under “firm civilian control”, is a “good neighbour” and respects the sovereignty of other nations, and finally is “working toward compatibility with NATO forces”.

The State Department said that such criteria did not constitute a firm “checklist”, saying that the “key determinant for any invitation to new members is whether their admission to NATO will strengthen the alliance and further the basic objective of NATO enlargement, which is to increase security and stability across Europe.”

Ukraine faces similar problems in its requests to join the European Union, which have been voiced more frequently since Russia’s invasion. New EU states have to meet the Copenhagen Criteria, requirements that include “stability of institutions”, “a functioning market economy”, the ability to uphold EU law, and protections for democracy, human rights, and minorities. As reported in September 2023 on these questions:

Many of these may be difficult to achieve during a major war, where to supposedly further the undeniably important goal of defeating the Russian invasion and occupation elections have been suspended, opposition political parties outlawed, military-age males banned from foreign travel, and corruption issues persist.

Cutting through talk of Ukraine joining the European Union despite these issues as a simple matter of obeying the “call of history” and ignoring the Union’s own rules, Hungarian leader Viktor Orbán said “very difficult questions” had to be asked.

Speaking to Hungarian radio this week, Reuters reports, the prime minister said: “We cannot avoid the question – when during the autumn we will have negotiations in Brussels about the future of Ukraine – whether we can actually seriously consider membership for a country, to start accession talks with a country that is at war.”

More at link

Someone pointed it out earlier that Zelensky is actually an illegitimate leader here now, an unelected despot.

He suspended elections conveniently just before they were to occur and has remained in that role unelected claiming that they don’t have the time to do elections right now.

But he has the time to go jetting off to the United States to hobnob with Democrats numerous times?

I’ve been saying this for a while, but the second that Trump wins his ass is going to be hanging from the nearest lamp post.

Ukrainian incursion in Kursk struggles as Russians retake territory

The recent Russian counterattacks in Kursk have retaken up to half of the territory first seized, casting doubt on how long Kyiv will be able to continue holding it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com...russia-kursk-attack/

As President Volodymyr Zelensky toured Europe and the United States to pitch his “victory plan” for how to end the war with Russia, Ukrainian forces suffered new setbacks on the battlefield — including, analysts say, ceding up to half of the territory Kyiv claimed during its cross-border offensive into Russia’s Kursk region this summer.

The surprise incursion into Russia had been hailed as a success by Ukrainian officials because it led to the capture of hundreds of Russian troops who could be exchanged for Ukrainian prisoners. But recent Russian counterattacks in Kursk have cast doubt on how long Kyiv will be able to continue holding the territory.

The Institute for the Study of War, which has been monitoring the conflict, cited visual evidence that Russian forces have recaptured 46 percent of the Ukrainian salient in the Kursk region. Ukraine’s Ministry of Defense has declined to reply to questions about the situation.

Russian President Vladimir Putin asserted that pockets of Ukrainian forces there were encircled, a statement sharply contested Friday by Oleksandr Syrsky, commander of Ukraine’s armed forces.

“Ukrainian forces continue active operations in the Kursk direction, for the third consecutive month, destroying the enemy’s combat potential,” he posted on Telegram. “Despite the immense pressure from the enemy on this front, the occupiers are suffering significant losses in personnel and military equipment.”

Ukraine’s latest losses in Kursk underscore how the country has struggled militarily amid discussions on ending the war. Russia has been making steady gains in Ukraine’s eastern Donetsk region all year and recently made new advances in the northeastern Kharkiv region in an attempt to reach the city of Kupyansk, which Ukrainian forces liberated from occupation two years ago.

Kyiv’s land grab in the Kursk region was included by Zelensky in his victory plan, and Ukrainian officials have presented the incursion as a potentially powerful bargaining chip in any future peace negotiations. But Russia’s latest advances could cast the risky offensive in a new light.

“I don’t think we can talk about the large-scale Russian offensive that could push the Ukrainians out just yet,” said Franz-Stefan Gady, a Vienna-based military analyst. “I think we’re still in a shaping phase — that is, in a preliminary phase before a larger-scale assault — and the major objective of the Russian forces currently is to [weaken] Ukrainian forces with artillery and drone strikes.”

“They’re essentially just testing the weaknesses of the Ukrainian defenses, so the incursion’s still fairly limited. And I think what’s concerning is that the Ukrainians are indeed actually already in this phase of being pushed back,” he added.

After Ukrainian forces caught the Russians by surprise, Moscow committed more than 50,000 troops to defend the region, Ukrainian officials said. But the incursion failed to divert Russia’s assault in Ukraine’s eastern Donetsk region, where Moscow’s forces have continued to threaten the key rail hub of Pokrovsk and surrounding villages.

Ukraine’s military intelligence agency said it now expects Russia to send in new reinforcements to the Kursk region, including some of the thousands of North Korean soldiers that the agency says have been training in Russia in preparation to join the war effort. That could enable Moscow to divert some soldiers fighting in Kursk to other parts of the battlefield.

Ukraine, meanwhile, has committed some of its top Western-provided arms and assault brigades to the Kursk incursion. A Western military official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive matter, estimated that at least 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers were fighting in Kursk, including brigades that received special training abroad.

Russia has the advantage of numbers in the area, but with Ukrainian forces already under strength at other parts of the front, sending more troops to Kursk could significantly weaken their defenses, especially in the embattled east.

Konrad Muzyka, a military analyst for Rochan Consulting in Poland, said the Russians have maintained some 33 units in the area — an increase from 12 in mid-August — and the Ukrainians have deployed about 23 units altogether.

“Personnel and resources allocated to Kursk would be put to good use in the Donetsk Oblast, likely decreasing the tempo of Russian advances in this part of Ukraine,” Muzyka said. “The Ukrainian political-military leadership must have concluded that from the strategic perspective, this commitment to Kursk was worthwhile even if that meant a loss of territory in Donbas.”

“The more terrain Russians retake, the less valuable Kursk will be for the Ukrainians,” he added. “So the Ukrainians need either to commit more units to the area or to attack elsewhere to impose a dilemma on the Russians. The problem is that Ukrainians do not seem to have a spare capacity at the moment for such moves.”

One of the Kursk’s offensive’s initial goals — to pull Russian troops to Kursk and weaken its attacks elsewhere — appears to have failed, analysts said. Russia has maintained the main thrust of its invasion in eastern Ukraine, attacking around the flanks of Pokrovsk and also south around Kurakhove.

Still, to completely expel the Ukrainians from the area will require a larger Russian force, which could give the Ukrainians a favorable attrition ratio to take advantage of, analysts said. However, that will also come at a cost to Kyiv.

“It’s unclear how strong Ukrainian defenses are in the area,” Gady said. “And I think Ukrainians have committed some operational reserves to the fight in the Kursk region.”

Kyiv announces new drive to mobilise 160,000 troops as Moscow advances

Ukraine is planning to draft another 160,000 troops into its army over the next three months, Kyiv officials said on Tuesday. The announcement came as Moscow said it had captured the mining hub of Selydove in the Donetsk region where Russian forces made rapid advances in recent weeks.

https://www.france24.com/en/li...over-n-korean-troops

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Someone pointed it out earlier that Zelensky is actually an illegitimate leader here now, an unelected despot.
He suspended elections conveniently just before they were to occur and has remained in that role unelected claiming that they don’t have the time to do elections right now.
But he has the time to go jetting off to the United States to hobnob with Democrats numerous times?
I’ve been saying this for a while, but the second that Trump wins his ass is going to be hanging from the nearest lamp post.

^^THIS!!^^
That little prick banned his opposition and shut down any media not government controlled.
He has declared himself The Man until he sees fit to allow an election. (Don’t hold your breath)
FUCK HIM!
- - - -
This is from 2 YEARS ago:

Yet a closer look at life in Zelensky's Ukraine reveals that it is not the paragon of democracy and Western values that everyone seems to think it is. Ukraine is a deeply corrupt country with wealthy oligarchs playing the same role there as they do in Putin's Russia. Using the war as an excuse, Zelensky has banned his political opposition and shut down all media not controlled by his regime.
The latest example of his authoritarian style is even more egregious.

Link

I am planning on this taking a different course after next week.

Hey Zelensky baby, just weapons aint to cut if for you. You need military aged males. Will that require NATO troops? We all know it will. President Trump needs to end this bullshit.


https://www.newsmax.com/world/...24/10/28/id/1185726/

North Korea Sent 10K Troops to Train in Russia, US Says
Monday, 28 October 2024 03:18 PM EDT

North Korea has sent some 10,000 troops to train in Russia, Washington said Monday tripling its estimate and prompting NATO as well as EU warnings of a dangerous expansion of the Ukraine war.

Pyongyang -- with whom Moscow signed a mutual defence pact -- is already widely believed to be arming Russia for its invasion but troops on the ground would mark a new escalation in the conflict.

"We believe that the DPRK has sent around 10,000 soldiers in total to train in eastern Russia that will probably augment Russian forces near Ukraine over the next several weeks," Deputy Pentagon Press Secretary Sabrina Singh told journalists, using an abbreviation for North Korea's official name.

US President Joe Biden also warned the deployment was "very dangerous", after Washington previously put the number of North Korean troops in Russia at more than 3,000.

Additionally, NATO chief Mark Rutte called the troop deployment "a dangerous expansion of Russia's war" and "a sign of Putin's growing desperation".

Rutte noted more than 600,000 Russian soldiers have been killed or wounded since the conflict started in 2022, adding the Kremlin was unable to sustain the invasion without foreign support.

Despite the cost, Russia has been making steady territorial gains in Ukraine.

Moscow's army advanced 478 square kilometres (184 square miles) into Ukrainian territory in October, a record since the first weeks of the war, according to an AFP analysis of data from the Institute for the Study of War.

By October 27 Russian forces had gained more territory than in August and September 2024 (477 and 459 square kilometres respectively) amid major shifts on the front line, in particular in eastern Ukraine around Pokrovsk.

- Growing threats -

Speaking in Brussels after a briefing with South Korean intelligence officials, Rutte said he could confirm that North Korean military units had been deployed in the field in Russia's western Kursk region.

Ukrainian troops launched a ground offensive in Kursk in August and control several hundred square kilometres of Russian territory.

"The deepening military cooperation between Russia and North Korea is a threat to both the Indo-Pacific and Euro-Atlantic security," Rutte told reporters in Brussels.

Experts have said that in return for the troops, North Korea is likely aiming to acquire military technology, ranging from surveillance satellites to submarines, plus possible security guarantees from Moscow.

EU chief Ursula von der Leyen also warned that North Korea sending troops "for the first time" represented "a significant escalation of the war against Ukraine and threatens global peace".

She made the comments after a phone call with South Korean President Yoon Suk Yeol, during which she assured the leader that "the EU's response to this development will centre on cooperation with the Republic of Korea and other like-minded partners".

- 'Enemy understands strength' -

Last week, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky warned that Russia was planning to send North Korean troops into battle within days.

"This is an escalation. Sanctions alone are not enough. We need weapons and a clear plan to prevent North Korea's expanded involvement in the war in Europe," Zelensky's chief of staff Andriy Yermak said on social media Monday after Rutte's comments.

"Today, Russia brings in North Korea; next, it could broaden their engagement, and then other autocratic regimes may see that they can get away with this and come to fight against NATO," he warned.

"The enemy understands strength. Our allies have this strength."

Rutte, a former Dutch prime minister who took over the reins of NATO this month, called on Moscow and Pyongyang to "cease these actions immediately".

Archived New York Times articles:

Published July 9, 2024

U.S. Officials Say Russia Is Unlikely to Take Much More Ukrainian Territory

Russian forces continue to inflict pain, but NATO leaders gathering in Washington can say that their efforts to strengthen Ukraine are working.

https://archive.ph/d5NgR#selection-4535.0-4539.143


Nov. 1, 2024

As Russia Advances, U.S. Fears Ukraine Has Entered a Grim Phase

Weapons supplies are no longer Ukraine’s main disadvantage, American military officials say.

https://archive.ph/avbh1

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
Archived New York Times articles:

Published July 9, 2024

U.S. Officials Say Russia Is Unlikely to Take Much More Ukrainian Territory

Russian forces continue to inflict pain, but NATO leaders gathering in Washington can say that their efforts to strengthen Ukraine are working.

I've never believed for a minute that NATO was doing anything that "strengthened" Ukraine. Ukraine is too corrupt and they don't have the military aged male population numbers to defeat or stop Russia. Hopefully President Trump get's us the hell out of this quagmire.

I think the lessons to take from this, for all former Soviet nations are:

A) Eliminate Russian in your society.
B) Long-distance shooting needs to become the national sport
C) Nukes. The demographic collapse means populations will become an asset to fight over, and no one will actually help.
D) In-country drone manufacturing, and “actually” encrypted comms.
E) Drones/missiles which can hit Moscow from your territory.

F) Don't allow the US State Dept of orchestrate a coup in your country, overthrowing/removing a democratically elected government and installing an EXTREMELY corrupt one favorable/beholden to the 'West', AND undermining any mutually beneficial relationship with Russia!

I just want to go on record and state that whatever U.S. officials say publicly, I believe 110 percent.
I support the latest thing

quote:

Originally posted by oldbill123:
I just want to go on record and state that whatever U.S. officials say publicly, I believe 110 percent.
I support the latest thing

oldbill123, you do know that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, right? What you did there, I see.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
I think the lessons to take from this, for all former Soviet nations are:

A) Eliminate Russian in your society.
B) Long-distance shooting needs to become the national sport
C) Nukes. The demographic collapse means populations will become an asset to fight over, and no one will actually help.
D) In-country drone manufacturing, and “actually” encrypted comms.
E) Drones/missiles which can hit Moscow from your territory.

No, it's capitulate when Russia come knocking.
Don't fight, don't plead for weapons.
Just let them walk in.

quote:

Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:

No, it's capitulate when Russia come knocking.
Don't fight, don't plead for weapons.
Just let them walk in.

Quit being melodramatic. We all know where you stand on the issue, but this makes you sound like a pissy 12 year old girl. You know good and goddamn well none of us have a problem with Ukraine fighting the Russians. Our problem lies in the fact that they're using our money, arms, and ammunition to do it.

quote:

Originally posted by mutedblade:

quote:

Originally posted by ScreamingCockatoo:

No, it's capitulate when Russia come knocking.
Don't fight, don't plead for weapons.
Just let them walk in.

Quit being melodramatic. We all know where you stand on the issue, but this makes you sound like a pissy 12 year old girl. You know good and goddamn well none of us have a problem with Ukraine fighting the Russians. Our problem lies in the fact that they're using our money, arms, and ammunition to do it.

Well put Mr Blade. This "kill every fucking Russian because I hate them" bullshit wears very thin with me. I have yet to hear any coherent explanation as to how the corrupt Ukraine (it is and always has been) regime has any strategic interest to the United States. 3,2,1 ... Argument: This is different than Vietnam domino theory.

Some of us have family, where Russians killed off 40% of the population.

You want to be opposed to sending weapons for financial reasons, that’s fine, but accept the history of what Russia does to occupied nations.

Hell, accept the history of what Moscow does to Russia’s rural population.

Russians didn’t get broken by Communism. Russian culture chose Communism because it is broken.

It’s a land the Reformation and the Enlightenment, missed. And that is the real solution to the problem.

^^^ This "culture" goes back centuries. Do you seriously believe this fucking around in and with Ukraine is going to change any of that? And trust this incompetent administration to do it?

quote:

Originally posted by slosig:

quote:

Originally posted by oldbill123:
I just want to go on record and state that whatever U.S. officials say publicly, I believe 110 percent.
I support the latest thing

oldbill123, you do know that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, right? What you did there, I see.

Actually, I have been told that before

But, I think I really, really believe it now

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Some of us have family, where Russians killed off 40% of the population.

You want to be opposed to sending weapons for financial reasons, that’s fine, but accept the history of what Russia does to occupied nations.

Hell, accept the history of what Moscow does to Russia’s rural population.

Russians didn’t get broken by Communism. Russian culture chose Communism because it is broken.

It’s a land the Reformation and the Enlightenment, missed. And that is the real solution to the problem.

For the record, I'm of Ukrainian heritage. One set of my my Great-Grandparents were Ukrainian, leaving me approx 1/8th Ukrainian...Not 100% sure on the exact percentage as they were Polish and Ukrainian, and historically that border moved around a bit. Prolonging this war is not in the interest of Ukraine or Russia...Or ANYBODY for that matter!

History is just that, history! We need to STOP prolonging this war, and START promoting a peace agreement, before it too late!