quote:

Originally posted by Anush:
Actually round 4. Georgia 2008, Donetsk area of Donbas & Crimea 2014, then Ukraine again 2022, I suspect round 4 will be the rest of Georgia. The US had a long term military presence in Georgia until recently. After Georgia, then Armenia as they are making overtures to the West and all Russian military has been kicked out.

Are you kidding me? Maybe you should check the success of neo-con kill all "the-Russians" history. It's not good. Oh, either side, Russia or US, can set their nukes off in the ground and most of the planets population dies. They don't even need to launch.
Tell us, what do you think the Red Menace's ultimate goal is? Global conquest?

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
Some territorial losses (much less than what's under Russian occupation now) - acceptable.

Sure, but the truth is, the time for that as a proposal was two years ago. I suspect Russia will end up keeping most of what they've taken so far. I don't see them leaving the table without an agreement that they see as hurting both Ukraine and the west at large. We propped up a war that would've been over two years ago, bet your ass they're not just going to agree to take a pittance. It will be less, but I don't think it will be "much less".

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
Disarming and neutering of the country's defense - unacceptable

Well, let's talk about that. Anything the US provided them ought to come back. If Europe wants to provide for the defense of Ukraine, then that's Europe's business, but all the armaments, ammunition, and technology we've given needs to come back. This is what should happen, but it never will, first of all because Ukraine would cry foul and say that we're disarming them, and also because I suspect they want that stuff to sell off when hostilities cease. They're gonna catch us coming and going.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
So called "neutrality" and resignation from NATO and EU membership - unacceptable, as it'd only be a prelude to the round two.

Ukraine joining NATO has been a stated hard line for Russia for a long time. Good luck with that one. Personally, I think the US needs to leave NATO and leave them to figure it out for themselves, so I don't have any strong feelings on this one either way, unless we're to stay and have a voice weighted commensurate with our investment, in which case, I say "tough shit, Ukraine." These people have been playing games with each other for most of the last two millenia. It's time to let them sort it out. I don't care who wins or loses, to be perfectly frank.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
No lifting of any sanctions until the appropriate reparations are paid in full.

I guess it depends on what the reparations are. If it's anyone but Trump leading the negotiations, the US is going to pay billions more dollars to Ukraine under whatever premise/guise, but the punchline is we get to launder more money there after the shooting stops. Sanction Russia whatever for whatever, I don't particularly care.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
Is that what you wanted to hear?

It doesn't really speak to your prior vague statements, so I guess not, actually. Would you like to qualify the Neville Chamberlain stuff? How about the implications that we're somehow encouraging Putin or fucking this up for those who want to help? No need to be evasive about it.

I'm not trying to be evasive.
I'm not saying that the US should pay anything after the war, Russia should. At that time, anything that comes from the US should be a loan.
The equipment they got and is still functional after the war should come back or be payed for, any additional equipment needs to be payed for (loans or otherwise).

Any speak of dissent, like "I don't want to get involved" or "let them sort it out" is interpreted in Moskva as a quite permission to continue and should be avoided.

To be clear, I do not expect US troops to defend Ukraine or bomb Russia, just a united front against Putins aggression. He needs to understand that it's unacceptable to attack neighbors to rebuild Russian empire in any form or shape.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
I'm not trying to be evasive.

If not evasive, then at least vague and unclear. With this post, I feel like we're getting somewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
I'm not saying that the US should pay anything after the war, Russia should. At that time, anything that comes from the US should be a loan.

Right, and my response was initially a sidebar to the reparations talk, but we might as well address it because our politicians are in the pockets of business interests that are absolutely slavering at the chance to get over there and make a mint off "rebuilding" Ukraine. We gave them the weapons to encourage the destruction, so we get to catch them coming and going as well. Everyone but the American people get to profit off this horsefuckery. They'll sell it to us however they have to in order to bill it to our tax dollars. I expect this and it disgusts me.

We have a record deficit and record interest on this deficit. We have zero business loaning anyone anything. There's also a better than zero chance, but still incredibly slim, that Ukraine actually pays us for anything we loaned them. It won't happen in my lifetime unless Trump wins and holds them by the throat over it.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
Any speak of dissent, like "I don't want to get involved" or "let them sort it out" is interpreted in Moskva as a quite permission to continue and should be avoided.

Nonsense. I'm not responsible for what Putin and Moscow interpret as whatever, I won't be saddled with that by anyone. I'll be damned if I'm going to be told to avoid speaking my mind on this, and my position is solidly that the US should not be involved and that Russia and Ukraine need to sort it out. If NATO and the EU want to get in there and help them figure it out, then have at. It. Is. Not. Our. Problem.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
To be clear, I do not expect US troops to defend Ukraine or bomb Russia, just a united front against Putins aggression. He needs to understand that it's unacceptable to attack neighbors to rebuild Russian empire in any form or shape.

But we aren't a united front on this. I'm adamantly against US involvement, and I'm not alone. Maybe that emboldens Putin, maybe it doesn't, I don't care. The expectation that we present a united front absolutely is an expectation for US troops to defend Ukraine and bomb Russia because otherwise, if there isn't, then what backs up this "united front"? Nothing. Let's speak plainly: There's fevered masturbatory fantasies held by many here along exactly those lines by a goodly-sized contingent spanning a couple generations worth of Cold Warrior blue balls, and they don't speak for all of us.

It's important for you and the world to know that there are many of us here who not only don't hold with that, we decry it as loudly and strongly as possible. Whatever Putin needs to be shown or made to understand is or isn't acceptable in Europe needs to be your responsibility to show/teach him, not ours.

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:
[QUOTE]Tell us, what do you think the Red Menace's ultimate goal is? Global conquest?

Yes, more or less. The Russian Autocrat is safe only so long as he is fighting a war.

If Putin is given his goals of “natural borders”, he will control a very substantial amount of the world’s resources, and the world will have let him conduct his genocides.

Yes, Zelenskyy is a POS - Ukraine is a messed up place - but Lithuania, Croatia, Poland, etc etc etc are some of the only functional cultures left in Europe, and long term allies.

Right now, millions of Russians are fleeing to neighboring countries - which become a Russian population, which “justifies” the Russian invasion.

If we don’t like the corruption, fine. Cleaning our own house is definitely in order, but then we need to leave NATO and let Europe loose/let the various Eastern European countries have their nukes back.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:
[QUOTE]Tell us, what do you think the Red Menace's ultimate goal is? Global conquest?

Yes, more or less. The Russian Autocrat is safe only so long as he is fighting a war.

Then why don't we just nuke'm (I know you don't have the balls to do that)? Short of that why don't we start a full scale invasion of Russia and kill everything we come across instead of doing this bullshit of Vietnam, Ukraine, Congo, etc. Killing Russians seems to be at the top of a few on this forums list. Let's just end it now.

Dang, I forgot about that China thing. Maybe get out of Ukraine and let Europe handle it?

https://www.rt.com/russia/6048...cruits-wounded-dead/


“When the new guys get to the position, a lot of them run away at the first shell explosion,” a deputy commander fighting near Ugledar in Donetsk Region said. Another commander whose unit is attempting to hold the nearby town of Khurakove said that “some guys freeze [because] they are too afraid to shoot the enemy, and then they are the ones who leave in body bags or severely wounded.”

The commanders estimated that 50-70% of new infantry troops are killed or wounded within days of starting their first rotation.

There is only one way to take Russia out of play on the world stage: invade, defeat and occupy it. Go full WWII Japan on them. Half-assed measures like pussy-footing and dicking around in and with Ukraine aren't going to cut it.

Ukrainian Lines Collapsing In East With World's Attention On Middle East War

https://www.zerohedge.com/geop...tion-middle-east-war

Moscow’s wide-reaching offensive in eastern Ukraine has continued making steady gains, as looming major war between Israel and Iran has largely taken over the news cycle and daily headlines.

Currently Russian forces have advanced to merely within a few a few kilometers of Pokrovsk, a key Ukrainian logistical hub in the region. As we've highlighted before, the collapse of Pokrovsk will likely portend a Russian takeover of the whole of Donetsk.

On Wednesday the Ukrainian army announced that it has fully withdrawn from the eastern town of Vuhledar, describing that it abandoned the area after being almost fully encircled, and coming under heavy Russian artillery bombardment.

"The High Command gave permission for a maneuver to withdraw units from Vuhledar in order to save personnel and military equipment and take up a position for further operations," a Ukrainian unit deployed there said in a Telegram post.

It cited specifically the "threat of encirclement" and heavy troop losses, and there are reports that Russian forces had already taken control of Vuhleda by the time the Ukrainian announcement was made.

Vuhleda is a significant achievement, and suggests Russia forces will continue to plow through Ukrainian defenses, given it was dubbed a "fortress" city given its long having heavily-fortified surroundings and being in an upland position.

Even The Daily Beast recently underscored that while President Zelensky was pitching his 'victory plan' in Washington, his forces were suffering loss after loss:

On a visit to the U.S. last week, Volodymyr Zelensky gave the hard sell to his “Victory Plan” for Ukraine. In meetings with President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris, and an awkward encounter with former President Donald Trump, the Ukrainian leader insisted his country could still–with Western help–emerge victorious in its long-running war with Russia.

...After two and a half years of war, soldiers are tired. The same soldiers who gave Vladimir Putin’s forces a bloody nose after the February 2022 invasion, and pushed the invaders from Kyiv and Kharkiv, say they are under-equipped and complain that they are being ordered to carry out impossible missions as Kyiv struggles to supply the military with new recruits and acquire more Western weapons to ward off Russian advances.

The same report has said that in some instances entire battalions are refusing orders from command centers as they see them as "suicide missions".

"With little training and battleground conditions far removed from what they signed up for at the beginning of the war, the men are sent on what they describe as suicide missions: They are told to get behind enemy lines to launch attacks, yet are not given the weaponry to do so successfully," Daily Beast wrote.

As for Vuhledar, Russia's defense ministry (MoD) and state media are in a celebratory mood. "As a result of conclusive operations by the units of the ‘East’ group of forces, the town of Ugledar in the DPR has been liberated," the miliary announced Thursday.

US state-funded Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty has confirmed the below video:



Widely circulating images and footage show Russian troops raising a flag over Vuhledar's central administrative building. Over the past two-and-half years, Russian forces had tried to take the town on a number of occasions, but were pushed back, until this week.


Zelensky Pushes Ukraine ‘Victory Plan,’ but Frontline Troops Stare at Defeat

https://www.thedailybeast.com/...oops-stare-at-defeat

NATO Chief Says Ukraine’s Membership Path is ‘Irreversible.’

https://thenationalpulse.com/2...ath-is-irreversible/

The new chief of NATO has declared that Ukraine will eventually join the military alliance despite being in the middle of a war with Russia and previously being deemed too corrupt. On Thursday, NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte visited Ukraine, affirming the country’s trajectory towards NATO membership as “irreversible.”

“Ukraine is closer to NATO than ever before, and will continue on this path until you become a member of our Alliance. I very much look forward to that day,” said Rutte, the former Prime Minister of the Netherlands, following discussions with Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky.

“I think the day will come that Ukraine is a full member of NATO, and let me add to that, if somebody might think otherwise, that Russia on this issue has no vote and no veto,” he claimed.

Rutte mentioned the $44.1 billion in military aid committed by NATO members to Ukraine over the past year. However, Zelensky advocated for NATO to begin directly intercepting Russian missiles striking targets in Ukraine, likening it to the U.S. and its allies intercepting Iranian missiles targeting Israel.

Rutte suggested such decisions rest with the national authorities of each NATO member. The only major NATO member to agree with Zelensky so far is Poland, where globalist foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski advocated shooting down Russian missiles last month.

Mark Rutte took over as head of NATO from Jens Stoltenberg, who noted in May that Ukraine was losing the conflict and argued that it should be authorized to strike deep inside Russia with Western weapons.

Those NATO folks sure seem to be wanting to “start summin’ “ with the Russians. It’s almost as if they are trying “to justify their existence” ever since the Iron Curtain fell in 1990.