quote:

Originally posted by Anush:
Actually round 4. Georgia 2008, Donetsk area of Donbas & Crimea 2014, then Ukraine again 2022, I suspect round 4 will be the rest of Georgia. The US had a long term military presence in Georgia until recently. After Georgia, then Armenia as they are making overtures to the West and all Russian military has been kicked out.

Are you kidding me? Maybe you should check the success of neo-con kill all "the-Russians" history. It's not good. Oh, either side, Russia or US, can set their nukes off in the ground and most of the planets population dies. They don't even need to launch.
Tell us, what do you think the Red Menace's ultimate goal is? Global conquest?

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
Some territorial losses (much less than what's under Russian occupation now) - acceptable.

Sure, but the truth is, the time for that as a proposal was two years ago. I suspect Russia will end up keeping most of what they've taken so far. I don't see them leaving the table without an agreement that they see as hurting both Ukraine and the west at large. We propped up a war that would've been over two years ago, bet your ass they're not just going to agree to take a pittance. It will be less, but I don't think it will be "much less".

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
Disarming and neutering of the country's defense - unacceptable

Well, let's talk about that. Anything the US provided them ought to come back. If Europe wants to provide for the defense of Ukraine, then that's Europe's business, but all the armaments, ammunition, and technology we've given needs to come back. This is what should happen, but it never will, first of all because Ukraine would cry foul and say that we're disarming them, and also because I suspect they want that stuff to sell off when hostilities cease. They're gonna catch us coming and going.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
So called "neutrality" and resignation from NATO and EU membership - unacceptable, as it'd only be a prelude to the round two.

Ukraine joining NATO has been a stated hard line for Russia for a long time. Good luck with that one. Personally, I think the US needs to leave NATO and leave them to figure it out for themselves, so I don't have any strong feelings on this one either way, unless we're to stay and have a voice weighted commensurate with our investment, in which case, I say "tough shit, Ukraine." These people have been playing games with each other for most of the last two millenia. It's time to let them sort it out. I don't care who wins or loses, to be perfectly frank.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
No lifting of any sanctions until the appropriate reparations are paid in full.

I guess it depends on what the reparations are. If it's anyone but Trump leading the negotiations, the US is going to pay billions more dollars to Ukraine under whatever premise/guise, but the punchline is we get to launder more money there after the shooting stops. Sanction Russia whatever for whatever, I don't particularly care.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
Is that what you wanted to hear?

It doesn't really speak to your prior vague statements, so I guess not, actually. Would you like to qualify the Neville Chamberlain stuff? How about the implications that we're somehow encouraging Putin or fucking this up for those who want to help? No need to be evasive about it.

I'm not trying to be evasive.
I'm not saying that the US should pay anything after the war, Russia should. At that time, anything that comes from the US should be a loan.
The equipment they got and is still functional after the war should come back or be payed for, any additional equipment needs to be payed for (loans or otherwise).

Any speak of dissent, like "I don't want to get involved" or "let them sort it out" is interpreted in Moskva as a quite permission to continue and should be avoided.

To be clear, I do not expect US troops to defend Ukraine or bomb Russia, just a united front against Putins aggression. He needs to understand that it's unacceptable to attack neighbors to rebuild Russian empire in any form or shape.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
I'm not trying to be evasive.

If not evasive, then at least vague and unclear. With this post, I feel like we're getting somewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
I'm not saying that the US should pay anything after the war, Russia should. At that time, anything that comes from the US should be a loan.

Right, and my response was initially a sidebar to the reparations talk, but we might as well address it because our politicians are in the pockets of business interests that are absolutely slavering at the chance to get over there and make a mint off "rebuilding" Ukraine. We gave them the weapons to encourage the destruction, so we get to catch them coming and going as well. Everyone but the American people get to profit off this horsefuckery. They'll sell it to us however they have to in order to bill it to our tax dollars. I expect this and it disgusts me.

We have a record deficit and record interest on this deficit. We have zero business loaning anyone anything. There's also a better than zero chance, but still incredibly slim, that Ukraine actually pays us for anything we loaned them. It won't happen in my lifetime unless Trump wins and holds them by the throat over it.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
Any speak of dissent, like "I don't want to get involved" or "let them sort it out" is interpreted in Moskva as a quite permission to continue and should be avoided.

Nonsense. I'm not responsible for what Putin and Moscow interpret as whatever, I won't be saddled with that by anyone. I'll be damned if I'm going to be told to avoid speaking my mind on this, and my position is solidly that the US should not be involved and that Russia and Ukraine need to sort it out. If NATO and the EU want to get in there and help them figure it out, then have at. It. Is. Not. Our. Problem.

quote:

Originally posted by ag111ga:
To be clear, I do not expect US troops to defend Ukraine or bomb Russia, just a united front against Putins aggression. He needs to understand that it's unacceptable to attack neighbors to rebuild Russian empire in any form or shape.

But we aren't a united front on this. I'm adamantly against US involvement, and I'm not alone. Maybe that emboldens Putin, maybe it doesn't, I don't care. The expectation that we present a united front absolutely is an expectation for US troops to defend Ukraine and bomb Russia because otherwise, if there isn't, then what backs up this "united front"? Nothing. Let's speak plainly: There's fevered masturbatory fantasies held by many here along exactly those lines by a goodly-sized contingent spanning a couple generations worth of Cold Warrior blue balls, and they don't speak for all of us.

It's important for you and the world to know that there are many of us here who not only don't hold with that, we decry it as loudly and strongly as possible. Whatever Putin needs to be shown or made to understand is or isn't acceptable in Europe needs to be your responsibility to show/teach him, not ours.

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:
[QUOTE]Tell us, what do you think the Red Menace's ultimate goal is? Global conquest?

Yes, more or less. The Russian Autocrat is safe only so long as he is fighting a war.

If Putin is given his goals of “natural borders”, he will control a very substantial amount of the world’s resources, and the world will have let him conduct his genocides.

Yes, Zelenskyy is a POS - Ukraine is a messed up place - but Lithuania, Croatia, Poland, etc etc etc are some of the only functional cultures left in Europe, and long term allies.

Right now, millions of Russians are fleeing to neighboring countries - which become a Russian population, which “justifies” the Russian invasion.

If we don’t like the corruption, fine. Cleaning our own house is definitely in order, but then we need to leave NATO and let Europe loose/let the various Eastern European countries have their nukes back.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bytes:
[QUOTE]Tell us, what do you think the Red Menace's ultimate goal is? Global conquest?

Yes, more or less. The Russian Autocrat is safe only so long as he is fighting a war.

Then why don't we just nuke'm (I know you don't have the balls to do that)? Short of that why don't we start a full scale invasion of Russia and kill everything we come across instead of doing this bullshit of Vietnam, Ukraine, Congo, etc. Killing Russians seems to be at the top of a few on this forums list. Let's just end it now.

Dang, I forgot about that China thing. Maybe get out of Ukraine and let Europe handle it?

https://www.rt.com/russia/6048...cruits-wounded-dead/


“When the new guys get to the position, a lot of them run away at the first shell explosion,” a deputy commander fighting near Ugledar in Donetsk Region said. Another commander whose unit is attempting to hold the nearby town of Khurakove said that “some guys freeze [because] they are too afraid to shoot the enemy, and then they are the ones who leave in body bags or severely wounded.”

The commanders estimated that 50-70% of new infantry troops are killed or wounded within days of starting their first rotation.

There is only one way to take Russia out of play on the world stage: invade, defeat and occupy it. Go full WWII Japan on them. Half-assed measures like pussy-footing and dicking around in and with Ukraine aren't going to cut it.

Ukrainian Lines Collapsing In East With World's Attention On Middle East War

https://www.zerohedge.com/geop...tion-middle-east-war

Moscow’s wide-reaching offensive in eastern Ukraine has continued making steady gains, as looming major war between Israel and Iran has largely taken over the news cycle and daily headlines.

Currently Russian forces have advanced to merely within a few a few kilometers of Pokrovsk, a key Ukrainian logistical hub in the region. As we've highlighted before, the collapse of Pokrovsk will likely portend a Russian takeover of the whole of Donetsk.

On Wednesday the Ukrainian army announced that it has fully withdrawn from the eastern town of Vuhledar, describing that it abandoned the area after being almost fully encircled, and coming under heavy Russian artillery bombardment.

"The High Command gave permission for a maneuver to withdraw units from Vuhledar in order to save personnel and military equipment and take up a position for further operations," a Ukrainian unit deployed there said in a Telegram post.

It cited specifically the "threat of encirclement" and heavy troop losses, and there are reports that Russian forces had already taken control of Vuhleda by the time the Ukrainian announcement was made.

Vuhleda is a significant achievement, and suggests Russia forces will continue to plow through Ukrainian defenses, given it was dubbed a "fortress" city given its long having heavily-fortified surroundings and being in an upland position.

Even The Daily Beast recently underscored that while President Zelensky was pitching his 'victory plan' in Washington, his forces were suffering loss after loss:

On a visit to the U.S. last week, Volodymyr Zelensky gave the hard sell to his “Victory Plan” for Ukraine. In meetings with President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris, and an awkward encounter with former President Donald Trump, the Ukrainian leader insisted his country could still–with Western help–emerge victorious in its long-running war with Russia.

...After two and a half years of war, soldiers are tired. The same soldiers who gave Vladimir Putin’s forces a bloody nose after the February 2022 invasion, and pushed the invaders from Kyiv and Kharkiv, say they are under-equipped and complain that they are being ordered to carry out impossible missions as Kyiv struggles to supply the military with new recruits and acquire more Western weapons to ward off Russian advances.

The same report has said that in some instances entire battalions are refusing orders from command centers as they see them as "suicide missions".

"With little training and battleground conditions far removed from what they signed up for at the beginning of the war, the men are sent on what they describe as suicide missions: They are told to get behind enemy lines to launch attacks, yet are not given the weaponry to do so successfully," Daily Beast wrote.

As for Vuhledar, Russia's defense ministry (MoD) and state media are in a celebratory mood. "As a result of conclusive operations by the units of the ‘East’ group of forces, the town of Ugledar in the DPR has been liberated," the miliary announced Thursday.

US state-funded Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty has confirmed the below video:



Widely circulating images and footage show Russian troops raising a flag over Vuhledar's central administrative building. Over the past two-and-half years, Russian forces had tried to take the town on a number of occasions, but were pushed back, until this week.


Zelensky Pushes Ukraine ‘Victory Plan,’ but Frontline Troops Stare at Defeat

https://www.thedailybeast.com/...oops-stare-at-defeat

NATO Chief Says Ukraine’s Membership Path is ‘Irreversible.’

https://thenationalpulse.com/2...ath-is-irreversible/

The new chief of NATO has declared that Ukraine will eventually join the military alliance despite being in the middle of a war with Russia and previously being deemed too corrupt. On Thursday, NATO Secretary-General Mark Rutte visited Ukraine, affirming the country’s trajectory towards NATO membership as “irreversible.”

“Ukraine is closer to NATO than ever before, and will continue on this path until you become a member of our Alliance. I very much look forward to that day,” said Rutte, the former Prime Minister of the Netherlands, following discussions with Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky.

“I think the day will come that Ukraine is a full member of NATO, and let me add to that, if somebody might think otherwise, that Russia on this issue has no vote and no veto,” he claimed.

Rutte mentioned the $44.1 billion in military aid committed by NATO members to Ukraine over the past year. However, Zelensky advocated for NATO to begin directly intercepting Russian missiles striking targets in Ukraine, likening it to the U.S. and its allies intercepting Iranian missiles targeting Israel.

Rutte suggested such decisions rest with the national authorities of each NATO member. The only major NATO member to agree with Zelensky so far is Poland, where globalist foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski advocated shooting down Russian missiles last month.

Mark Rutte took over as head of NATO from Jens Stoltenberg, who noted in May that Ukraine was losing the conflict and argued that it should be authorized to strike deep inside Russia with Western weapons.

Those NATO folks sure seem to be wanting to “start summin’ “ with the Russians. It’s almost as if they are trying “to justify their existence” ever since the Iron Curtain fell in 1990.

Conscription tactics get dirty as war-weary Ukrainians defy draft

Under pressure to mobilise 200,000 extra soldiers, Ukraine army recruiters are resorting to checkpoints, bundling men off the street and ignoring exemptions

https://www.thetimes.com/world...defy-draft-8zb26rt2p


Ukrainians are resorting to extreme lengths to flee the war

https://www.thetimes.com/world...sia-troops-dcmd9lz96

Pentagon Chief Visits Ukraine, Unveils New Aid Package, Ahead Of US Election

https://www.zerohedge.com/geop...ge-ahead-us-election

Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin arrived in Ukraine's capital by train on an unannounced visit Monday, at a moment Ukraine's forces are getting steadily pushed back in the east, and as President Zelensky expresses frustration at the lack of large-scale new military aid.

"It’s been absolutely remarkable that Ukraine has been able to do what it’s done," Austin told reporters as he went into Ukraine Sunday night. "It’s been able to do that, of course, because of the fact that we have supported them from the very beginning, and we’ve rallied some 50 countries to be a part of that support."

In Kiev, Austin announced $400 million in new arms for Ukraine but did not acquiesce to the Ukrainians' main ask - the greenlight to strike Russia with US-supplied weapons.

The Wall Street Journal also emphasized of the package, "It was one of the smaller aid packages the Biden administration has announced and included no new types of weapons systems."

This trip to Ukraine is likely to be Austin's last one there as Pentagon chief. CNN noted that it came amid a dark and pessimistic backdrop:

The secretary’s visit was also meant to serve as a moment for him to “step back” and look at the “arc” of the US-Ukraine relationship over the last two and a half years of war, a senior defense official said.

It was not a victory lap, however. The Ukrainians are in a “very tough” situation against the Russians heading into winter, the official noted.

There was one moment in Austin's remarks clearly aimed at Trump and Republican lawmakers back home. Amid ongoing GOP criticisms, including calls to take care of Americans first amid natural disasters instead of handing billions over to Ukraine, the defense secretary tried to brush back these arguments...

"For anyone who thinks that American leadership is expensive, well, consider the price of American retreat," Austin said.

"Not since World War II has America systematically rallied so many countries to provide such a range of industrial and military assistance for a partner in need."

Zelensky last month lashed out at Trump running-mate J.D. Vance, calling him "too radical" for his stance on the war. The Ukrainian leader expressed that "the idea that the world should end this war at Ukraine’s expense is unacceptable."

Clearly Austin's Monday words were framed in response to that controversy, and some GOP operatives are not going to be happy that the Pentagon chief used an official visit abroad to weigh in. But one question that remains is: How much for North Carolina?

I’m standing by for some outside the box changes when Trump gets elected(hopefully).

The 1st question is, can Ukraine beat the Russians without outside help? Most agree, the answer is no.

With Trump, Zelenskyy has no special ‘Berisma’ type relationship to hold over his head, like with Biden. No more USA $$ down a rathole.

Then you go to China & tell them their ships will be turned around at U.S. ports until they lean on Russia for a settlement. That settlement may not look ideal, but it will stop the fighting.

There was an article the other week, Russia is down 1 million military aged men, 400,000 kia, hundreds of thousands seriously wounded, the rest left the country to avoid service.

One may not care much about those numbers, Russia after all. The Ukrainian numbers are likely worse, especially going by percentage of the population.

To me, a settlement makes more sense than the idea of us getting involved any further. I don’t even want to hear a settlement is impossible.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/1...5UEuy&smid=url-share

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sourdough44,

quote:

Zelensky last month lashed out at Trump running-mate J.D. Vance, calling him "too radical" for his stance on the war. The Ukrainian leader expressed that "the idea that the world should end this war at Ukraine’s expense is unacceptable."

Unacceptable to whom?
Sorry, too bad, so sad.

quote:

Ukrainians are resorting to extreme lengths to flee the war

Zelensky: You've lost your support, both at home and abroad. Only the MIC wants any further involvement. Your campaign effort to help the Democrats in the US (election interference) will backfire and only further help Trump.

Zelensky's expiration date approaches.

I don’t see how Ukraine can be in NATO, until it resumes elections.

We managed to hold one during the Civil War, in the 1860s. (Admittedly, there may have been some “issues” with it.).

Ukraine’s’ leadership should probably be in prison. (And getting them to testify against others would be excellent.)

Not sure if such a leadership change would be enough for Putin to be able to back down, without losing face.

But, this definitely has changed warfare and I cannot imagine any country in Eastern Europe or Central Asia remaining non-nuclear.

quote:

I don’t see how Ukraine can be in NATO...

THIS Right here! Ukraine should NEVER be in NATO! That is all

The Donbas & Crimea (basically Eastern Ukraine) is part of Russia now...People need to accept it!

Ukrainian Troops Increasingly Refusing Orders, Desertion Rates Explode

And Miss Lindsey baffled why the Ukrainians aren't throwing all their 18 year olds into the meat grinder?

https://x.com/ggreenwald/status/1797297393303453730

Isn't it just amazing how some people like Graham can fly over to Ukraine and run his mouth telling them how to run their country, such as it is, and yet get all huffy when someone from another country tries to tell the U.S. how to run our country!
Right now Ukraine is run by an unelected individual whose term of office expired some time back. My opinion is that he has no authority, but that is a Ukraine problem not some other governments' problem. This is just my opinion and carries no weight anywhere.

President Trump needs to end this horseshit. How long before US troops are actively involved in this mess? It's been mentioned throughout this thread that Ukraine cannot lose fighters on a 1 to 1 or even a 1 to 4 ratio.

Link

Is Ukraine Running Out of Soldiers?: Despite fighting well and eliminating Russian troops by the hundreds or even thousands during any given battle, the Ukrainian armed forces face a serious manpower shortage.

The problem has become so acute that military recruiters in Ukraine are staking out events with large crowds and looking for draft-age men to serve in the army. The recruiters have gone to extraordinary lengths to do their jobs, even pulling men from weddings, parties, and concerts who have not registered for military service.

Recruiters Are Tracking Down Draft Dodgers
A video on Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty even showed a military-aged man being physically dragged by recruiters from a concert venue to an awaiting car. His status is unknown, but it is safe to say that he is now in the Ukrainian army and will likely soon be sent to the war zone.

“There are not enough people at the front — that is an absolute fact,” Ukrainian defense analyst Pavlo Narozhniy told Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty. “There is a shortage of personnel in absolutely all units.”

Ukrainians Are Outnumbered at the Front
The number of Russian troops could enable the invaders to win the war due to their manpower advantage. The Ukrainians are constantly being attacked by Russian personnel who have superior numbers.

Narozhniy described a scenario he believes occurs frequently at the front. Five to seven Ukrainian soldiers man a trench or observation point designed to hold 30 men. These unlucky, outnumbered troops have to fight 30 to 40 Russian troops who may be attacking in mass.

Draft Age Males Are Avoiding Registering for Service
There is a mobilization law in Ukraine. Men aged 25 to 60 must register with the government at recruitment centers, civilian offices, or on a mobile phone app. Many are simply ignoring this policy. Others have already left the country to avoid the draft altogether. Some have deserted.

The law should have given Ukraine a pool of 3.7 million reservists who could be called into service. Realistically, the army may only grow by 200,000 soldiers next year.

Seasoned Troops Have Disadvantages
One group of citizens is answering the call to serve, but they are on the older side. Many frontline infantry troops are aged 40 and above. They are certainly brave and wise about the ups and downs of combat service, but physically, they are no match for a soldier who is between 18 and 30 years old.

Defense analyst Rob Lee with the Foreign Policy Research Institute highlighted a Financial Times article on X documenting the Ukrainian personnel problem of overaged soldiers.

Lee noted that “Age is a key concern — the average person in Ukraine’s military is 45. Of about 30 infantry troops in a unit,” said the deputy commander of the 72nd brigade, “on average half were in their mid-40s, only five were under 30 and the rest were 50 or older.”

“As infantry, you need to run, you need to be strong, you need to carry heavy equipment,” this commanding officer said. “It’s hard to do that if you aren’t young.”

The Older You Are, the More Likely You Are to Become Injured
War is indeed a young man’s game. I enlisted in the U.S. Army at 28 and continued my service until I was 33. I was in peak condition for most physical training like running, but I developed painful spinal arthritis from carrying 100-pound rucks and doing sit-ups on the pavement. I probably could have avoided this malady had I been younger.

Even the Ukrainian soldiers who are answering the call, many have never served the military in any fashion. They are above 40 years old and are getting mowed down at the front without the proper training and experience. They are sometimes abandoning their positions and running away from the fighting, the Financial Times reported.

Without Enough Soldiers, Military Hardware Is Useless
The manpower shortage doesn’t seem to affect Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s ‘Victory Plan.’ He frequently asks the West for more major military hardware such as missile systems and airplanes plus howitzer ammunition and rockets that can hit targets deep inside Russia. He doesn’t often admit that his army is being outmanned by the Russians.

It Will Be a Long, Hard Slog
It is unclear how long the Ukrainians can continue the fight with a shortage of young men. A full-fledged mandatory draft for all military-aged citizens would not be popular. Young men are more likely to avoid registering with the authorities, leaving middle-aged men who do not have the proper physical attributes to take their place. These new older males are being torn to pieces at the front suffering an estimated 50 to 70 percent casualty rate in infantry combat. Plus, not everyone should be in the infantry in the first place. Some draftees have civilian-acquired skills that would make for better-specialized support troops instead of infantry roles.

This is an apparent problem as the war enters its third year. Russia could conduct another conscription drive to give them further a personnel advantage. The new Ukrainian troops are not fighting well, leaving exhausted combat veterans to fend off the Russians daily. Ukraine must adapt soon or lose the war, and they may have to fight on with the more seasoned troops who are not ready for combat. Plus, if there are not enough civilians entering the training units, eventually, the war effort could grind to a halt.