Possible legal question concerning recovery of property.

March 13, 2017, 02:19 PM

mark123

quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
quote:
Originally posted by BurtonRW:

Unless Jim is willing to give it to you, do NOT do this. As far as he's concerned, he's the bona fide owner of that amp and all that the police will care about is that you removed it from his property without permission. That is ALL they will care about.

Your action in small claims court, if you went that way, would be against Jim and maybe your brother, but you would certainly not proceed against your brother without Jim as a defendant.

Read my signature line and then go consult a Pennsyltucky lawyer for qualified, local advice.

-Rob

A lot of the advice in the thread, other than Burton's, is in the "specatacularly wrong" category.

First - is it worth what the legal process will cost. Assume it will cost about $5000 to $8,000 for a lawyer, or 15 to 30 hours of your time in small claims court. Then decide.

But, here is what I see as the law, although I am Texas lawyer, not one in Pennsyltucky.

The buyer may not have good title - you don't get good title from a thief. Even an innocent buyer from a thief is not the new owner. But is your brother a thief? There will be plenty of ambiguity about that - was it a loan, a gift, a what?

So, you could certainly sue your brother, the current "owner" and any intermediaries. You probably won't get your attorney's fees, unless your state has a statute giving them to you. Most states don't allow fees to be recovered in tort suits.

Or is this a bailment? Did you give the amp to your brother to hold for you? What duty does he owe you? If that is true, I am really at a loss to know what your state allows as a remedy between you and the end buyer, if any. The lapse of time may, or may not matter.

In short, this is a far more complex legal situation than it may appear. It wouldn't make a bad hypothetical for a law school exam - in terms of sorting out who owes who what and on what theory of recovery.

If this is Jim Marshall's first 100 watt head, it may be worth the money to sort it out. If it isn't, you'll have to think about how much this is worth to you.

As a matter of fairness, I think your brother should buy you a new amp. That is a likely legal result, too, but how you get there would be interesting. Maybe you can get that specific amp back, but that is a lot less certain to me.

Thanks. I suppose if this were a prime example of a 1972 Marshall Super Bass then it'd be worth lawyering up, but it's not, it's just mine. If they won't budge I have no choice but to once again be let down and ripped off by family and friends. You'd think I'd be used to it by now but I'm not.

My brother may be guilted into purchasing an amp but he's got it hard enough with his (w|l)ife. Jim has had a rough life recently, too. Perhaps karma is retroactive.

March 13, 2017, 02:21 PM

mark123

quote:
Originally posted by sigmonkey:
To Marks defense.

The amp is his, no matter how much "ownership" the guy who came to posses it has invested in it.

It was not his brother's to give.

Certainly it was not abandoned, it was an open ended "loan". That "loan" has not been modified.

Not a month, a year, a decade or a century.

If I were a judge and it hit my court, the property would be returned as is, and the brother and the other guy could work out their problem in the parking lot. (but I would probably know a lot more about law, too...)

That said, I have no trouble scorching bridges.

The path in front of me is well illuminated by the burning bridges behind me.

Thanks, my friend, for understanding. I appreciate it.

March 13, 2017, 02:33 PM

jhe888

And, for the record, I don't think you are in the wrong. Just the contrary. But vindicating your rights may be harder than it is worth.

March 13, 2017, 02:42 PM

mark123

quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
And, for the record, I don't think you are in the wrong. Just the contrary. But vindicating your rights may be harder than it is worth.

Thanks. You're correct. It's just a material item. It will also reveal the character of someone I called a friend for so long. We shall soon see.

March 13, 2017, 03:33 PM

HRK

Pretty much that, it's a character test, in the end if you offer Jim the bucks he spent on the amp to get it working correctly it's probably going to be way less than the costs both financially and personally (time, effort, lost income elsewhere, etc) to get the amp.

I'd just talk to Jim, ask him how much he spent and offer to reimburse him for it so you can get your amp back, if you get it, you get it, and move on with your amp.

Your brother should have asked you before selling it, no doubt.

March 13, 2017, 03:33 PM

tleddy

This!

quote:
Originally posted by jhe888:
And, for the record, I don't think you are in the wrong. Just the contrary. But vindicating your rights may be harder than it is worth.

March 13, 2017, 10:48 PM

mark123

The short answer is "no, you can't have it. Get over it."

This was the friend I posted about in the past that would always avoid me, not accept calls, never return texts. I always wondered what I did. Now I know, he was avoiding me due to guilt. He's a thief in my eyes and I'm better off without him.

March 13, 2017, 11:42 PM

jimmy123x

quote:
Originally posted by mark123:
The short answer is "no, you can't have it. Get over it."

This was the friend I posted about in the past that would always avoid me, not accept calls, never return texts. I always wondered what I did. Now I know, he was avoiding me due to guilt. He's a thief in my eyes and I'm better off without him.

Honestly, the real fault falls on your brother. Your brother may have sold it to Jim. I doubt your brother giving his financial situation gave it to Jim. But either way it's a real crappy situation.

March 14, 2017, 12:41 AM

mark123

quote:
Originally posted by jimmy123x:
quote:
Originally posted by mark123:
The short answer is "no, you can't have it. Get over it."

This was the friend I posted about in the past that would always avoid me, not accept calls, never return texts. I always wondered what I did. Now I know, he was avoiding me due to guilt. He's a thief in my eyes and I'm better off without him.

Honestly, the real fault falls on your brother. Your brother may have sold it to Jim. I doubt your brother giving his financial situation gave it to Jim. But either way it's a real crappy situation.

You're right but Jim knew full well that it wss mine. He also kept the sale secret from me. He is not innocent. My brother was a raging drunk and that's probably why he can't remember the incident. Not saying he's not at fault but Jim took advantage of him as well.

Had I done this years ago I'd have the law on my side but there you go. Dirt bags will be dirt bags no matter how friendly you are to them.

I'll probably complain some more and then move on. Thanks for listening.

March 14, 2017, 01:19 AM

deepocean

quote:
Originally posted by mark123:
The short answer is "no, you can't have it. Get over it."

Are you saying you contacted the guy with the amp, tried to talk to him about it, and he said this to you? If he knowingly bargained with your brother while your brother had an alcohol problem, that is really sad.

I am sorry this happened to you.

March 14, 2017, 02:05 AM

KMitch200

quote:
Originally posted by mark123:
I'll probably complain some more and then move on. Thanks for listening.

Vent all you want. You got the crappy end of the stick and your brother is the one that handed it to you.
Jim isn't innocent by any means if he knew the situation but if you can't strike a deal with him that makes you happy, move on all the wiser from the experience.

March 14, 2017, 04:44 AM

KevinCW

If it has really been "many years"...

1. How can you even claim it?

2. As many hands/years as it has passed through do you REALLY have a claim....

If it was that imprtant, why loan it. If not, who cares. Write them off as a friend and call it a deal....

March 14, 2017, 05:21 AM

mark123

quote:
Originally posted by KevinCW:
If it has really been "many years"...

1. How can you even claim it?

2. As many hands/years as it has passed through do you REALLY have a claim....

If it was that imprtant, why loan it. If not, who cares. Write them off as a friend and call it a deal....

I meant to quote this to make a better reply below but edited it instead so my original reply is lost. I said something like "Time does make theft legal but never moral." I meant it as a lament and was not trying to imply anything toward KevinCW.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: mark123,

March 14, 2017, 05:44 AM

KevinCW

1. You asked a "legal" question in your post, not a moral question. I then simply asked for clarification.

2. Again, asking for clarification, I neither excused or judged ANYONE... and I resent the implication...

March 14, 2017, 06:16 AM

mark123

quote:
Originally posted by KevinCW:
1. You asked a "legal" question in your post, not a moral question. I then simply asked for clarification.

2. Again, asking for clarification, I neither excused or judged ANYONE... and I resent the implication...

You're right, sorry. I want implying you were being immoral. It had been many years. It just doesn't make me feel better.

March 14, 2017, 06:53 AM

mark123

Dang it. I meant to quote this and I edited it instead.

quote:
Originally posted by KevinCW:
If it has really been "many
1. How can you even claim it?

2. As many hands/years as it has passed through do you REALLY have a claim....

If it was that imprtant, why loan it. If not, who cares. Write them off as a friend and call it a deal....

better answers.

The loan was open ended, time didn't enter into the deal.

1. I paid for it. It's mine, I guess.
2. My brother's hands were the only ones I expected it to be in.

I never needed it until recently. It's upsetting but I'm going to have to cultivate the who cares attitude and write them all off. Neither have been a brother or friend to me for a long time. I don't know why I expected a different response.

I truly am being foolish.

March 14, 2017, 07:07 AM

bionic218

Sorry to hear this, Mark.

More than the loss of property, it really sucks that some of the people you should be able to count on most to have your back, don't. A man should be able to fall back on his brother or his friends, but I guess some vintage amp (or the measly few hundred bucks it brought them at the time) is more important to them than you are - which really sucks.

I hope you get the gig - with the cover band, and I hope your luck takes a turn. Living well really is the best revenge.

March 14, 2017, 07:15 AM

mark123

quote:
Originally posted by bionic218:
Sorry to hear this, Mark.

More than the loss of property, it really sucks that some of the people you should be able to count on most to have your back, don't. A man should be able to fall back on his brother or his friends, but I guess some vintage amp (or the measly few hundred bucks it brought them at the time) is more important to them than you are - which really sucks.

I hope you get the gig - with the cover band, and I hope your luck takes a turn. Living well really is the best revenge.

Thanks, friend. You're right, the worst part really is being of less worth than worldly goods. I've let it go and let them go, too.

All is forgiven but I'm not going to set myself up again.