wrightd -- Stihl just announced that in 2025 they will discontinue the 362CM and the current 400CM. It appears they are splitting the difference between the two saws, most likely to trim their pro-level gas saw product line.

362CM -- 59 cc, 12.35 pounds, 4.69 horsepower
current 400CM -- 66.8 cc, 12.8 pounds, 5.4 horsepower
estimated new 400C -- 62.6 cc, 12.4-ish pounds, 5.2-ish horsepower

It's possible that some retail stores will begin offering slight discounts on the 362CM. I wouldn't bet the farm that discounts will occur immediately, nor that they will be substantial. But you never know.

*****
FWIW today I ran 2 tanks of gas through my B-I-L's Stihl 271 Farm Boss -- 50cc with an 18" bar. The 271 just came back from my shop, after replacing the bar oiler. I also bought a new bar for him, as his existing bar was toast. The old bar's channel was very worn, and the chain wobbled. It took me a lot of work to square the old bar and remove the burrs. But it just didn't cut straight in big wood.

Anyway, after uber-sharpening his chain, the 271 cut very well with the bar buried in 20" diameter logs, using the new bar. I had to feather the pressure on the saw a bit to keep the engine from bogging, but it was throwing chips.

What I'm saying is that if the engine runs well, if the chain is really sharp (and the rakers set properly), a good chain saw cuts some pretty big wood.

I know that it was asked and we have answered to the question, but I am struggling that anyone who is just burning firewood needs anything like the saws we are discussing at the moment.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
There are a few reasonable chainsaw brands out there, but Stihl and Husky rise to the top. A primary consideration is local dealer support. In my area there are many Stihl dealers, even choices among their elite-rated dealers. Husky support in my area is quite limited -- one can buy a Husky in many places, but service is limited.

I recommend going with a newer-style computer-controlled carburetor model. These systems make starting so much easier.

Stihl's Farm & Ranch models include:
311 -- about $650, 13.7 pounds for the powerhead, 59cc, 4.2 hp
391 -- about $700, 13.7 pounds for the powerhead, 64cc, 4.4 hp
Between these two, go with the 391. We have both 310 and 390 models, which are earlier versions. These are decent saws, but they're heavy for their power, and they don't have the new electronics.

Stihl's Pro models include:
261 CM, about $680, 10.8 pounds, 50cc, 4.0 hp
362 CM, about $940, 12.4 ounds, 59cc, 4.7 hp
Both are really great saws. The 261 is amazingly light. I think the 261 is better with an 18" bar than a 20". For the 362 go with an 18" or 20" bar. If you're bucking a lot of wood that's 16-20" or larger in diameter, then the 362 is the better saw. For limbing, the 261 is nicer due to its lower weight. Stihl's CM saws have the newer electronics and they start more consistently -- hot, cold, anywhere in between. A pro saw is a noticeable better saw than a Farm & Ranch saw.

Thx for posting this. I have been considering a new saw, this really helps out.

Fritz, have you run the 261 with a 20" bar?

Not Fritz but I run my 261 with 20 inch bar all day long. Ran two tanks of gas through it this weekend. No issues. I keep the chain sharp.

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Fritz, have you run the 261 with a 20" bar?

Yes, I have briefly run my 261 with my 400's 20" bar. The 261 runs fine with the longer bar. There's no real difference between my normal 16" bar and the 20" bar in cutting capabilities on smaller wood. Now when the full length of the bar is buried, there's a definite difference -- I cannot force the 261 into the wood as I can with the 400. When I ease off and let the saw work at its own speed, the 261 does just fine.

I have the oiler adjustment set on maximum for the 261, as I do with the 310 and 400. I feel the 261 pumps out enough oil for a 20" bar, as long as the sawyer isn't trying to hammer in dry & hard wood. Cutting an old 20 inch or more stump isn't in the 261's wheelhouse. Unless the saw is allowed to cut very slowly, it will likely overheat the bar & chain. Probably won't do much for the clutch, either.

Bottom line -- 261 with a 20" bar will work for many folks, especially those working with smaller diameter wood. I want a stronger powerhead for a 20" bar.

*****
Now before an anal-retentive Stihl webz guru steps in....

I am well aware that most Stihl dealers sell a 261 with a .325" pitch .063" gauge bar/chain setup. I am well aware that most Stihl dealers sell a 400 with a 3/8" pitch .050" gauge bar/chain setup. My dealer doesn't sell fully-assembled saws on the shelf, but rather one chooses the powerhead-bar-chain system. Given that my Stihl 310 uses 3/8" pitch .050" gauge, and that I have new 3/8" chains in wings for when my old chains go tits up, I had my dealer assemble my 261 with a 3/8" chain setup. That means the drive sprockets on my Stihls are all 3/8" and I can swap bars at will -- without needing to change drive sprockets. It also means one sharpener for all my Stihl chains.

Still running my Stihl 026 Pro with a 20" bar purchased new in 1997. Not great for taking down big oaks or walnuts but I don't do much of that on this property now. If I ever need to replace it, I will buy another Pro series Sthil.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:

quote:

Originally posted by old rugged cross:
Fritz, have you run the 261 with a 20" bar?

Yes, I have briefly run my 261 with my 400's 20" bar. The 261 runs fine with the longer bar. There's no real difference between my normal 16" bar and the 20" bar in cutting capabilities on smaller wood. Now when the full length of the bar is buried, there's a definite difference -- I cannot force the 261 into the wood as I can with the 400. When I ease off and let the saw work at its own speed, the 261 does just fine.

I have the oiler adjustment set on maximum for the 261, as I do with the 310 and 400. I feel the 261 pumps out enough oil for a 20" bar, as long as the sawyer isn't trying to hammer in dry & hard wood. Cutting an old 20 inch or more stump isn't in the 261's wheelhouse. Unless the saw is allowed to cut very slowly, it will likely overheat the bar & chain. Probably won't do much for the clutch, either.

Bottom line -- 261 with a 20" bar will work for many folks, especially those working with smaller diameter wood. I want a stronger powerhead for a 20" bar.

*****
Now before an anal-retentive Stihl webz guru steps in....

I am well aware that most Stihl dealers sell a 261 with a .325" pitch .063" gauge bar/chain setup. I am well aware that most Stihl dealers sell a 400 with a 3/8" pitch .050" gauge bar/chain setup. My dealer doesn't sell fully-assembled saws on the shelf, but rather one chooses the powerhead-bar-chain system. Given that my Stihl 310 uses 3/8" pitch .050" gauge, and that I have new 3/8" chains in wings for when my old chains go tits up, I had my dealer assemble my 261 with a 3/8" chain setup. That means the drive sprockets on my Stihls are all 3/8" and I can swap bars at will -- without needing to change drive sprockets. It also means one sharpener for all my Stihl chains.

Awesome info. We dub thee the Sig Forum Stihl guru

quote:

Originally posted by hrcjon:
I know that it was asked and we have answered to the question, but I am struggling that anyone who is just burning firewood needs anything like the saws we are discussing at the moment.

Re your question, the answer is embedded in my opening post. The reason is my saw has been abused, so to speak, because it's too small for what I've asked it to do, AND, I want to move to a 20 inch bar.

So... since you generally need 60cc's to run 20 inch bars, and my 40 cc saw isn't up to the challenge for my normal duty cycle I need my saw to run, hence I need a 60cc chainsaw.

So, the type of chainsaw you're saying is overkill, is not actually overkill, if 1) your existing saw (like mine) is being used beyond its designed duty cycle, and 2) the bar is not long enough for your particular use case, then by definition, you need a bigger saw and/or a step UP from a home owner grade saw.

Also, there are some guys who have to run bigger saws if they're in the business of making and selling firewood. For those guys, their saws wouldn't last one week if they were using my little saw. And for guys that are heating their homes in the far north primarily with firewood, the exact same circumstances apply here.

I hope that makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by fritz:
wrightd -- Stihl just announced that in 2025 they will discontinue the 362CM and the current 400CM. It appears they are splitting the difference between the two saws, most likely to trim their pro-level gas saw product line.

362CM -- 59 cc, 12.35 pounds, 4.69 horsepower
current 400CM -- 66.8 cc, 12.8 pounds, 5.4 horsepower
estimated new 400C -- 62.6 cc, 12.4-ish pounds, 5.2-ish horsepower

It's possible that some retail stores will begin offering slight discounts on the 362CM. I wouldn't bet the farm that discounts will occur immediately, nor that they will be substantial. But you never know.

*****
FWIW today I ran 2 tanks of gas through my B-I-L's Stihl 271 Farm Boss -- 50cc with an 18" bar. The 271 just came back from my shop, after replacing the bar oiler. I also bought a new bar for him, as his existing bar was toast. The old bar's channel was very worn, and the chain wobbled. It took me a lot of work to square the old bar and remove the burrs. But it just didn't cut straight in big wood.

Anyway, after uber-sharpening his chain, the 271 cut very well with the bar buried in 20" diameter logs, using the new bar. I had to feather the pressure on the saw a bit to keep the engine from bogging, but it was throwing chips.

What I'm saying is that if the engine runs well, if the chain is really sharp (and the rakers set properly), a good chain saw cuts some pretty big wood.

That's significant news Fritz, thanks VERY much for that Intel.

I wonder what the risk factor would be as an early adopter for that new model. Like for new model guns and cars, I'm assuming the conventional wisdom still applies here as well with a new model Stihl saw regarding any additional risk being a first-year buyer of a new model. What do you think.

I have a stihl ms290 and it's been great. 18"bar, (20"max) 56cc, 3.8bhp. Over 20 years old, and I've cut a lot wood with it. Other than new bars and chains no issues, starts right up.

Enough saw for my needs. Mostly easy cutting wood here pines, cedar and juniper.

My small 14" saw is an old 1970s Jonshred, and still runs like a champ.

Husqvarna 450/455 have a good reputation but I've never owned one.


Good luck with your search.

.

quote:

I wonder what the risk factor would be as an early adopter for that new model.

Fritz can of course answer you directly. But as someone who has bought like 30ish stihl pro chain saws since I first owned a commercial tree lot I put the risk exceptionally low. They are tuning a completely established formula with just a minor adjustment on displacement bracketed by well established models above and below. I'd have zero hesitation myself. and if the 362 is gone I will have to get the new model myself shortly.

quote:

Originally posted by wrightd:
I wonder what the risk factor would be as an early adopter for that new model.

Probably minimal risk. But our family has bought only a handful of Stihls:

390, produced 2000 thru 2009 -- B-I-L bought his in 2000. Cut a crap ton of trees from 2000 to the mid-2010s. He doesn't use it much anymore, but I know it still works well.

271, produced 2011 thru current -- B-I-L bought his in the mid-2010s. Uses it much more than the 390, which is a combination of lower weight and better carb electronics. I just cut with his 271 this weekend. It's still going strong. Bar oiler & bar have been replaced, the clutch is the next thing that needs replacing.

310, produced 2000 thru 2009 -- Dad bought mine in 2001. Lots of hard use. On its 3rd carb, 5th bar, a handful of chains, 3rd clutch. I still use it for dirty wood (blow downs on the ground) and cutting stumps. A couple of years ago, my shop said the engine is still in amazingly good condition.

400cm, produced 2020 thru current -- Bought mine in 2021, I think. A good amount of use over 3 years. Originally the electronics were a little funky on the saw. At full throttle and high revs, I could hear the saw being held back -- the revs dropped by a few hundred every few seconds. That went away after a number of tanks of gas and now it just hammers at full throttle. The "experimental" magnesium piston seems to work just fine.

261cm, produced 2014 thru current -- Bought mine in 2023, B-I-L just bought one. Not all that much time on this saw yet, as it is the eventual replacement for my 310. I pretty much use it on clean wood, and limbing big trees that I felled with the 400 & the 25" bar. This is an amazingly well behaved saw -- starts easily and cuts without drama.

******
Stihl's 2025 version of the 400C will almost certainly be a good saw, right from the get go. I suspect that a 362 will still work very well for you, and you might be able to find a new one at a decent price.

quote:

Stihl's 2025 version of the 400C will almost certainly be a good saw, right from the get go. I suspect that a 362 will still work very well for you, and you might be able to find a new one at a decent price.

Or even a good used one if someone wants to upgrade to the new 400C.

Stihl

As per Fritz news on the Stihl 400CM, it's getting good reviews on the internet. However, it is the first Stihl chainsaw with a magnesium alloy piston. I'm not sure about the physics of saving 0.7 ounces for a piston moving so fast, but I'm sure Stihl engineers did their homework.

But my question is about longer term durability of said piston and cylinder over time. Here's their explanation of that new piston technology:

https://corporate.stihl.com/en...ts/simplicity-itself

What do you guys think about that ? I'm assuming there's probably some direct or indirect treatment in other industries like racing or aviation or aerospace.

What do you guys think about a magnesium piston. The saw itself looks great on paper, but it doesn't have a long history outside of laboratory stress testing and testing partners in the forest harvesting industries.

quote:

there's probably some direct or indirect treatment in other industries like racing or aviation or aerospace.

There is simply no analog of a 2stroke single cylinder air cooled piston of this size in any modern racing or aviation or aerospace application. IMO you are simply depending on Stihl's testing to guide and inform you. myself i wouldn't sweat it much as if there are issues Stihl will solve them and support you. At least in the short term.

Is there no love for an Echo 590 or 620 here?

The original Stihl 400CM does use a magnesium alloy piston, where an aluminum alloy is used by most saws. For whatever reason, Stihl's preliminary reports state that the new 400C will go back to aluminum. Could be cost, production challenges, materials sourcing, maintenance issues, or others. I know that my 400CM runs & cuts very well, with very good throttle response.

I've seen it stated that a homeowner/ranch grade saw might have a useful life of 1,000 hours. At that point, the piston & cylinder are likely toast -- metals scoring and reduced pressure. A pro level saw might have a useful life of 2,000 hours.

My oldest saw is a Stihl 310, and we've had it a little over 20 years. Lots of parts have been replaced, but my shop says the engine is in amazingly good shape. Their lead tech said might last another 10 years -- but I will likely be tired of it before then. The 310 is a ranch-grade saw. It's tough to state how many hours are on the saw. Maybe 600, or 700, or 800? Pretty amazing performance, especially since we used regular automotive gas for so many years. And of course, that's why the carb has taken it in the shorts a couple of times.

I don't track hours on the 400CM, but I suspect it's at least 150, but more likely close to 200 hours. Variable-use hours. Limbing hours are the easiest on the engine -- repeated throttle up and down, then set the saw down to idle as I move the cut limbs. Felling is pretty easy on the saw -- lots of throttle blips to control the direction of the cut. Bucking logs puts more strain on the engine, as it's full throttle for extend periods. Leveling old stumps is the hardest saw duty. The saw gets really hot, the chain smokes, and the bar often gets hot enough to show some loss of paint and/or metal darkening. When I crunched the handle while felling, my shop said after the repairs that the 400CM is in great shape. The shop manager said it's pretty obvious that this saw sees hard use, but that I take care of it.

A number of factors contribute to saw longevity:
- A sharp chain. Dull chains cut slower and bog down the engine. The engine gets hotter than it should and the clutch wears faster. I sharpen before each day, and often once or twice during the day.
- Fuel quality. This is the combination of gas and oil. Automotive gas has lots of additives that aren't the best for chainsaws. Most automotive gas has alcohol -- which in addition to the water that comes with it -- is bad for chainsaw engines. Too little oil in the fuel mix will ruin the piston faster than anything.
- Bar oiling. Under-oiled bars bog down the engine in a similar way that a dull chain does. Without enough oil, there's a lot of heat from the friction. Also, a bar is a wear part -- it must be maintained (squared and de-burred), and replaced regularly under hard use.
- Air filtration. If dust gets past the air filter, the pistol will eventually show wear. An engine starved for air -- due to a plugged air filter -- will run hotter than normal, and it will bog down. I clean my filters regularly, and knock the dust off with each tank of fuel. With my newer 261 and 400, I have small piece of lady's nylons over the air filter to reduce the number of particles that make it to the filter.
- Overall saw cleanliness. At a minimum, saws should be cleaned via an air compressor after every use. Remove the oily chips & sawdust around the clutch and everywhere else they might accumulate. I go one step further and regularly hose mine down at the car wash. One has to be careful with pressured water, as there are parts of the saw that this isn't the best practice. Ixnay water in the carb. But my shop's guys state that my saws are some of the best maintained that they get to work on.

Saws run well and last a long time if the above issues are addressed. I'm expecting an extended useful life with my 400CM.

quote:

Originally posted by wcb6092:
Is there no love for an Echo 590 or 620 here?

I have the Echo 620 and it is a beast. It came with a 27" bar but that was more than I generally need so I replaced it with a 24". I've had a couple of Stihl and Husquvarna chainsaws and I would rate this as the best of them.