Was discussing 2A and probability of needing to draw. A question came up: what is the rate that a LEO draws a weapon in an encounter?

Are there statistics by county that indicate how many times a LEO drew his weapon in an encounter? Draws per person (who carries a weapon as part of job) per year type of stats? Aggregate, not person specific.

It’s not relevant in a decision to carry. But may be a curious stat if it’s tracked.

varies.

some depts will be very low because if you draw your gun for any reason, bam, use of force report.

searched an apartment today because dude pointed a gun at his girl, we all had our guns out while we searched. found him hiding in the closet.

felony stop, everyone has their gun out until it's time to cuff. if suspects are compliant, no one gets hurt.

searching a warehouse because of an alarm and find an open door, meh. probably just flashlight and hope someone nearby has a dog.

none of those would require a use of force report at my agency.

Basically, if I shoot someone, stab someone, spray someone, punch someone, then use of force report.

But funny enough, if I have to break a window and yank a sovereign out and direct him to the ground for his safety and ours, no use of force report. just a regular report. lol

it varies.

We draw our weapons quite frequently. We don’t track that.
It’s only reportable when we point our guns directly at someone.
So, our department has that info.
Though, that number is somewhat skewed now that we have body cameras because we wear them on our chest and while sometimes we are technically at a low ready or a decent amount to the side of actually being pointed directly at someone either the arm blocks the whole view or it’s just a weird angle so the brass says write it up anyway just to cover it.

We have these signal devices as well that every time we draw our weapons it activates our camera or if the camera was already on it adds a marker to the footage.
So, it may be possible to search that info but a lot of our body camera footage is not kept longer than 30 days here. So it would only be a limited number of the actual total if there is a way to search that.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
We draw our weapons quite frequently. We don’t track that.
It’s only reportable when we point our guns directly at someone...

Why only then?

I can see no report when a gun is drawn and no one encountered, as in your warehouse example.

But there are many videos of agitated police officers drawing firearms on unarmed people who the officer was clearly attempting to intimidate.

In Virginia, that meets the legal definition of brandishing, a felony with a penalty of up to ten years. But I've never heard of a cop being prosecuted, but I know of cases where citizens drew defensive firearms, did not shoot, and were charged with brandishing.

I believe if police draw any weapon, pepper spray, baton, Taser, or firearm in the presence of a citizen, whether the officer uses that weapon or not, there should be a report. If only to protect the officer and the department.

I work for a large SO. We do not track the drawing of weapons nor consider them a use of force incident. Over 33 years on the job. I would have worn out too many pens and later computers if I had track it. I've worked some neighborhoods (mostly night shift too) where it was almost a daily occurrence.

Thanks guys. Sounds like no real stats available; even if available, methods (reporting requirements) are inconsistent across agencies. Although it may be interesting to see numbers from NYPD or LAPD (some large metro PD).

I was often alone, with backup far away and had to deal with some things all by my lonesome. I would draw early and often! My Dept did not consider it a use of force, even if you pointed it at someone.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Thanks guys. Sounds like no real stats available; even if available, methods (reporting requirements) are inconsistent across agencies. Although it may be interesting to see numbers from NYPD or LAPD (some large metro PD).

In the old days of NYPD, it was not uncommon to do "verticals" in the Projects with gun in hand. I don't know what their current policy is.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
I was often alone, with backup far away and had to deal with some things all by my lonesome. I would draw early and often! My Dept did not consider it a use of force, even if you pointed it at someone.

Pretty much what my department policy was also.

Never did a report of drawing a gun and never had a complaint when I did...but I worked mostly at night.

Bear in mind this was before the days of Body Cams.

The only time it was included in a report is if I fired my weapon or if I took someone into custody at gunpoint

I have a friend in PA in 1972 that was nervous and had the shakes so was a bad shot. He had a Sears 20 gauge double barrel with the barrel and stock cut down like the Ithaca Auto and Burglar gun.

He carried that at night in his brief case.

In VA, I have read that just showing like in your waist band, can be considered banishing.

I don’t know but I’m actually ready for wearables. I want a body cam. Something small AF, inconspicuous, recording when I’m out of the house (not the gym however) so if I have to draw and point at the ground, nobody can claim I swept them. I’ll deal with 5-0 concerning a presentation and whatever repercussions from that. Fuck a dash cam, I want a body cam! Society is just completely fucked.

As far as reporting is concerned, I believe that pointing the gun at a person is often a criteria to report because, absent justification, it is a crime. Some agencies likely see it as better to document up front.

I'm retired now, I had two OIS, one as a giver and one as a receiver, both with armed homicide suspects.

I often worked alone, meaning no one from my agency was likely to go 10-8 for at least 8 hours. The SO had a couple of units working the same time as me but the county was so large it could take them 30+ minutes to arrive. The local PD relationship was excellent and would respond out of their city limits regardless of the distance. The area was remote, the state highways used to transport drugs directly from Mexico. The couriers were armed and not likely to surrender to a single uniformed officer. There was a major state prison in my area which had several escapes. The area was well known for posse commitatus nitwits. The illicit manufacturing of meth was prevalent due to the remote area.

My agency required reports for discharging a weapon at a human or dispatching an animal. CYA reports were encouraged but not always mandatory.

We didn't have body cameras. I had a micro recorder. If I had to write paper every time I applied a pressure point control technique, mace/pepper spray, side handle baton, or drew my pistol/shotgun/CAR-15, I would never have time to patrol.

My most reliable backups for most shifts were my P220, 870 and CAR-15 and about 300rds of ammo for each. People who demand reports by LE to document the dangers they experience on a daily basis have no idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

So, it may be possible to search that info but a lot of our body camera footage is not kept longer than 30 days here.

Surprising to hear that the bodycam footage is only kept for 30 days. I would have guessed those videos would go to the cloud and be stored indefinitely or a min of 3yrs. Has it always been this way at your dept? Is this pretty much standard policy?

My former agency currently requires a report anytime it clears the holster.

I was not an officer, but my understanding was not pointed directly at a subject (such as low ready) is “info only”. Pointing at anyone intentional or not is considered a “Use of force”.

Standard records retention is 90 days unless requested for a legitimate reason prior to being purged and they are purged at 90. Used to maintain longer just because space was available to do so, but due to liability of inadvertently not releasing a copy still on hand when presumed to have been purged, purging became a requirement.


One of the nightmares of retention is the longer you have it, the more people access it, make copies, forward to others, etc. The more likely your agency unintentionally violates a release request.

The audio call I make a copy of to investigate an accusation on one of my Call Receivers/Dispatchers mishandling a call is attached to my investigation. My investigation is sent via email to my boss, they do their review and forward it to IIU, IIU makes their determination, compliant is closed however appropriate.

90 days from date of call, the original call recording is purged. 100 days from date of call, the complainant makes a release request - research checks for call, it has been purged from the call recorder. Researcher closes the request and notifies the complainant there are “No Responsive Records” due to the 90 day retention period having expired.

Now if I, and everyone else in that chain, don’t also purge/delete those emails sent and received with the file attached and it happens to be sitting in someones email 100 days later when the complainant’s request for release gets denied due to the time passed and someone doesn’t catch that we still have a copy floating around somewhere, the Department is on the hook civilly for withholding or failing to comply with a release request.

The researcher doesn’t know who or why copies may have been made, doesn’t have access to everyone’s email to check for random files out in the great beyond or anything else. The bigger the event, they greater the likelihood of multiple copies of things floating around just waiting to bite someone the ass for still having and not being disclosed should there be a request for it.

This creates a lot of work in a large department and my former employer has several full time employees who do nothing but try to chase down things that are past retention and have copies floating around where they shouldn’t be.

quote:

Originally posted by Sig2340:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:
We draw our weapons quite frequently. We don’t track that.
It’s only reportable when we point our guns directly at someone...

Why only then?

I can see no report when a gun is drawn and no one encountered, as in your warehouse example.

But there are many videos of agitated police officers drawing firearms on unarmed people who the officer was clearly attempting to intimidate.

In Virginia, that meets the legal definition of brandishing, a felony with a penalty of up to ten years. But I've never heard of a cop being prosecuted, but I know of cases where citizens drew defensive firearms, did not shoot, and were charged with brandishing.

I believe if police draw any weapon, pepper spray, baton, Taser, or firearm in the presence of a citizen, whether the officer uses that weapon or not, there should be a report. If only to protect the officer and the department.

The logistics of that would be close to impossible. You add in all possible weapons for an active officer you could be looking at hundreds not improbable to be close to 1,000 added reports a year per officer. About 9 officers in a squad (understandable not all officers are that active so well cut the total average for the squad in half) that’s 4500 more reports a sergeant has to read and approve simply because people were around and a weapon was drawn. And we are just a medium sized department.
Work a rough area and you make traffic stops at night, folks don’t stop right away, are moving around quite a bit in the car. My backup is a ways off guess what I have drawn? Pointed at you, no but upholstered and ready for sure most of the time they have no idea I even had it out. We need paperwork??
Same to a disorder call and I can hear yelling and thumping and I am by myself, guess what is drawn?
Again, once it gets settled out they have no idea it was drawn.

I have no idea for the reason behind it though it is possibly along the lines of what is legislatively allowed. Here if regular Joe pulls out their gun they are a LONG way from a felony or even a misdemeanor, heck even a criminal charge for that matter.
You don’t come close a felony without pointing a gun at someone or firing a shot.

As to your video anecdotes in the instances where the weapon is drawn the officer knows 100% the person is not armed or a threat??? One does not need to be armed with a weapon for one to legally be allowed to draw a firearm.

I have been at this a long time worked with ALOT of agencies in multiple states and even travelled to a US territory and I have never seen an agitated officer pull a firearm simply to intimidate someone when they have no justifiable means for pulling the weapon (granted justification is very broad for such a thing).
I however do not really watch police videos all that often. So I could just be out of the loop on this tactic.

quote:

Originally posted by FLKev:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

So, it may be possible to search that info but a lot of our body camera footage is not kept longer than 30 days here.

Surprising to hear that the bodycam footage is only kept for 30 days. I would have guessed those videos would go to the cloud and be stored indefinitely or a min of 3yrs. Has it always been this way at your dept? Is this pretty much standard policy?

Some video is kept longer but considering every interaction I have with people and sometimes with no one at all is recorded there is a lot of pointless video.
I am filling up with gas and someone walks over to ask me directions, I am supposed to be recording. I go to an alarm (95%+ are false and I encounter no one) I am supposed to be recording. Thats ALOT of video.
Cloud storage is not free and it is not even close to being cheap.

All traffic collisions outside of fatalities that do not end with a citation are not kept, traffic stops with no citations. When I go to your house to take a report, etc, etc, where no law enforcement action are taken get scrubbed after 30 days.
Traffic citations are kept a year I think, then all criminal arrests outside of homicides are only kept until the time of appeal is up. The list goes on but the vast majority of my day and some days, like today, where I had a bunch of calls that were inconsequential will be deleted in 30 days. Most calls are this way.

The other is privacy as most available body camera footage is available by open records request (granted this varies by state what can be redacted).
But say you come home from work and find your house has been broken into so you walk me around the house showing me each room and what they took, we walk in your closet and there is your gun safe they could not get in but it’s still on my camera.
You tell me what time you left for work, what time your wife left for work, clearly there are no dogs in the house, or an alarm.
How long do you want that video to be available for people to request it?

So like reporting every weapon drawn when people are around keep all video is pretty much logistically impossible as well.

Another little info bit on body cam video retention…


Every video released has to be reviewed and edited for allowed or required redactions (audio as well as visual) before it can be released.

I spent my final months in Records and working release requests. Few folks can comprehend the amount of work this review and redaction takes. A major event, shooting, serious assault, fatality vehicle accident, etc. can literally turn in to hundreds of man-hours to review/redact/release. Multiple officers respond, you have multiple videos all documenting the same event.

They ALL have to be included. Audio pertaining to the call is included. Background audio/radio traffic for unrelated events has to be muted out if it has personally identifying, confidential, or privileged information.

Faces of bystanders on side of road or other unrelated images captured on video may need to be blurred.

Folks think tech and computers may may this work easier and faster, in reality they make more work since so much more info is being captured in the first place vs One case report and maybe a few Officer supplementals in the “old days”.

When I started (1992), my department had about 1100 Deputies and a few hundred “support” staff. Now, it is probably about a 1 to 1 ratio with the vast majority of the support (non-commissioned) staff being tech related either IT supporting the tech or users dealing with the data that is collected in some way.

quote:

Originally posted by FLKev:

quote:

Originally posted by Black92LX:

So, it may be possible to search that info but a lot of our body camera footage is not kept longer than 30 days here.

Surprising to hear that the bodycam footage is only kept for 30 days. I would have guessed those videos would go to the cloud and be stored indefinitely or a min of 3yrs. Has it always been this way at your dept? Is this pretty much standard policy?

Storage costs money. Back when my dept looked at which camera to buy-storage cost was the driving item, clarity be damned.we wound up with the one that linked to our in car cameras so it would turn it on when our light bar was turned on.

It would be strange to not draw for some of the calls we respond to; therefore, drawing might need to be different than having someone at gunpoint or aiming in as far as tracking. It is indeed a UoF report where I work for aiming in but not for drawing.

My perception is over the years the frequency of drawing has increased significantly. I get this from my dear brother’s anecdotes, as a cop that started in the mid 70’s and retired about 10 years ago. When he was a uniformed cop, he went years without drawing his gun, with the exception of finishing deer struck in vehicle collisions. From mid 70’s to early 90’s he was involved in only a handful of incidents involving the draw and firing of his handgun.
In his later career as a detective, it became a nearly weekly occurrence.
Over the years, the sleepy little town he worked ( that we grew up in) changed a lot in regards to greatly increased amount and intensity of criminal activity.
At one point for a good number of years he was the primary firearms instructor for his department, and back in the 80’s there were old timers who were retiring that worked in the town from the late 50:#/early 60’s who stated they did an entire career without ever drawing.
He had some crazy stories when he started training standards for firearms in his department which for years had been almost nonexistent. Guys showing up for training days with revolvers rusted shut and inoperable, guns stuck in holsters etc.