I see them being mentioned in the dog attack thread. So as not to hijack that thread, let's discuss them here.

Why have they fallen out of favor by most police agency's in this country? Seems to me that they were very effective tools in controlling violent situations.

I suspect they have fallen out of favor in places where they’ve been made illegal because, it might be considered indefensible. Within law enforcement it’s fallen off because it was used to strike people in the head and that’s no longer kosher.

They were very effective at ending a fight.

But they tend to split someone's scalp when applied...almost every time.

Soooo, whack to the noggin=works, but looks really really bad because -split scalp and lots of blood...

And I've been attacked by two different dogs when I was a cop and there is no way I would have went for a smack to it's head with a sap or a PR24 or a standard nightstick, and DEFINITELY would not have used an ASP (they are worthless)

I just figured they were too effective...I.e. Guaranteed fractured skull effective.

They are illegal and have been for 20 or 25 years. People who think that Saps have a place in modern LE are completely out of touch with reality.

Nowadays, striking a subject in the head with a baton, sap, or other blunt instrument is considered deadly force, meaning it can only be done to protect myself or another from imminent serious injury or death.

And if I'm justified in using deadly force, there are much more effective ways of applying it than wading in to contact distance and hitting someone in the head.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeinNC:
They were very effective at ending a fight.

But they tend to split someone's scalp when applied...almost every time.

Soooo, whack to the noggin=works, but looks really really bad because -split scalp and lots of blood...

And I've been attacked by two different dogs when I was a cop and there is no way I would have went for a smack to it's head with a sap or a PR24 or a standard nightstick, and DEFINITELY would not have used an ASP (they are worthless)

Still have my sap somewhere. They were outlawed may years ago. ASP were worthless.

Bill Jordan said he preferred to shoot a guy rather than hit him with a sap or nightstick, because it was easier to convince a judge and jury that he didn't shoot the guy too hard.

But alas, the homeless population here often carry a smiley. A padlock at the end of a short chain.

"what, this. My bikelock."

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
But alas, the homeless population here often carry a smiley. A padlock at the end of a short chain.

"what, this. My bikelock."

Yes, but homeless people very seldom get civil rights charges filed against them for excessive force.

quote:

Originally posted by newtoSig765:
Bill Jordan said he preferred to shoot a guy rather than hit him with a sap or nightstick, because it was easier to convince a judge and jury that he didn't shoot the guy too hard.

My old chief had one on his desk (he started in the 50s) but we never had them. As stated by others the head is a no strike zone unless deadly force is warranted.

We now have other things on our belt, taser (i wish!), baton, o.c. Sadly I’m still a hands-on guy. I’m getting too old for this and need to rethink my ways.

Over the years I have found several. 5 or 6 at least.
All the leather is usually dried and brittle or non existent.
My staff first think its a door stop of some sort, then I show them the power of the sap...and the carve out the legal ramifications of having one these days.

Each sap have shown some pretty ornate metal work on the lanyard end.
Swivels and cross checking etc. neat.

Regardless, getting whacked with one anywhere is not my idea of a good time either.
I never bothered to get them rewrapped. (Knowing it’s a fine line between collecting and possessing,like none).And it would simply make me want to keep one around. And that could be a bad thing.

There was a similar thread some years ago. IIRC, the consensus was that the risk of permenant brain damage was unacceptable.

Somewhere I have my Grandfathers sap. He retired in the 60's from the Toledo Police Department. As others have said, the leather is dried, cracked and crumbling.

In the 70's, I bought a Sap from a gun store in Norwood, Ohio.

They are very, very dangerous, IMO and if it were to be taken away from you in a fight, you would be screwed.

quote:

Sadly I’m still a hands-on guy. I’m getting too old for this and need to rethink my ways.

Verbal judo is your friend.

Is this what you guys are talking about?

https://www.defensedevices.com...er-sap-slappers.html

quote:

Originally posted by Muddflap:
Is this what you guys are talking about?

https://www.defensedevices.com...er-sap-slappers.html

I was wondering the same, when I see Saps I assume the weighted gloves, so I was confused by a few of the comments in this thread until I remembered that thing...

quote:

Originally posted by Muddflap:
Is this what you guys are talking about?

https://www.defensedevices.com...er-sap-slappers.html

Yes, at least I am.

Yes, that is what I am referring to.