In one of the videos in the recent terminal ballistics thread, Clint Smith points out a number of incidents where the bad guys were wearing body armor that will stop pistol rounds. His advice "shoot 'em in the crotch" sounds like a solution, but what if one only has time for a quick center mass shot, or does not realize the assailant is wearing body armor?

My understanding is that soft body armor prevents the round from penetrating the skin, but can produce a painful impact injury. I saw a recent video from a police officer's body cam where his armor saved him from a round to the chest. While clearly in a lot of pain, he stayed in the fight and dispatched the bad guy.

My question is, are there pistol rounds that can temporarily disable or distract an assailant with soft body armor long enough for a more precise follow-up shot?

I can't say this from experience, but it seems to me if you hit an armor-wearing BG in the chest you have their attention long enough to offer a second shot.

This was taught at a pistol class I took:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill

Any impacts from normal defensive handgun rounds will be noticeable to the recipient. Even if the armor prevents the rounds from penetrating, there's still a significant amount of force being imparted by each round, sufficient to cause pain, serious bruising, broken ribs, etc.

So any defensive handgun caliber has this potential to "distract" or temporarily psychologically "disable" an assailant.

Also consider that the majority of successful defensive shootings end when one party is "psychologically stopped", even if they're not "physiologically stopped". That is, they're hit, it hurts, they're scared, they're reconsidering their choices, and so they fall over/drop the weapon/give up/run off/etc. They're not necessarily deceased or unconscious at that point. You can't rely on this 100%, because some determined attackers (especially those in a chemically altered state) won't stop until they're physically unable to continue functioning. But even rounds that are caught by armor may be enough to effect a successful stop by a less determined attacker.

Things like bad guys wearing armor are why you should be training to shoot until the threat is stopped, however that stop looks like. If your first rounds to center mass aren't having the desired effect of stopping the threat, you can train to quickly transition to a secondary area like the head or the pelvis, which are less likely to be armored.


And to clarify, you're not necessarily shooting for the "groin". You're shooting for the pelvic girdle, which is the bone structure of the pelvis, lying between the hips and between roughly the groin and the navel. This is a primary load-bearing structure of the body, and is also one of the largest bones and most painful bones to break. If you shatter their pelvis, in addition to it being extremely painful, their body is physically unable to remain standing. There are also major veins and arteries that run through that area. Plus, the pelvis is a larger and more stationary target than the head, making it potentially easier to hit when you're having to transition to that secondary target because center mass hits aren't working and you suspect they may be armored.

Mindset is a big factor. While the impact of a round(even if stopped by a vest)may not kill you, people react differently to being shot.

But I think your methodology is flawed....you mention putting one round center of mass....you should be shooting until the threat is over, ie has stopped pointing a gun at you or has dropped the gun.

Firing one and then pausing and looking to see if it worked will get you killed.

I’m not advocating a mag dump, as you should be constantly observing and accessing.

I would say if you know you’ve had center mass hits (evident by the bad guy reacting to sudden painful stimuli) and he/she doesn’t go down it’s time to rethink your targeting. Knowing a little anatomy helps, a good hit to the pelvic girdle which isn’t typically covered by body armor will incapacitate your assailant and possibly kill them with blood loss as that area is rich in large blood vessels. Of course, a head shot is the quick solution as it’s the ultimate off switch.

quote:

Originally posted by Ranger41:
My question is, are there pistol rounds that can temporarily disable or distract an assailant with soft body armor long enough for a more precise follow-up shot?

Although I don’t know the specifics of the laws/regulations, in general handgun ammunition that’s actually capable of perforating soft body armor may not be sold, and what there was of it has long since become generally unavailable.

To answer your specific question, though, and despite the claimed beliefs of the all handgun ammunition performs the same crowd, the more powerful the bullet, the more someone will feel being shot with it (all else being equal, of course). In my tests of discarded Kevlar vests, for example, there was a significant difference in the partial penetration of 357 SIG bullets as compared with 9mm or 45 ACP. I cannot imagine that that difference wouldn’t be perceived by the shootee if he was aware of the impacts at all.

If they're physically hardened (body armor) or chemically hardened (drugs, adrenaline, etc) and those high-center-mass hits aren't having a "stopping" effect, it's time to choose a different area. Pelvic girdle, as RogueJSK explains (well and thoroughly) is an excellent one.

The head, not so much. Smaller, bobbing around, and very heavily armored in its own right. Only a fairly small "zone" is a reliable show-stopper, and I have much less faith in my ability to find that than I have in a round or two to the PG.

Slight thread drift: This is one of the many maddening things about discussions in the media or online-- even here-- when there's a police shooting with x rounds fired. "Four officers, forty rounds? Was that necessary?" Well, yeah, probably. It means four offices couldn't immediately perceive that their OWN rounds were a) impacting and b) doing something, let alone take stock of what their three partners were accomplishing. If they're not literally hardened, then still frequently the suspect's brain needs to "catch up" with the news that they've suffered a fatal wound.

quote:

Originally posted by Ranger41:
My question is, are there pistol rounds that can temporarily disable or distract an assailant with soft body armor long enough for a more precise follow-up shot?

Not that they're necessarily available (that would be a separate question) but weren't some of Elite Ammunition's 5.7x28s highly regarded for that sort of scenario?

Pelvis shots as noted above are a non-ammo way to approach the problem, and there's no availability issues there.

I also recall my OpSpec training re: the Mozambique drill as noted by vinnybass above, which as I recall was named when folks facing armor-wearing troops (Cubans?) in Mozambique trained "2 to the body, 1 to the head," which would be another non-ammo-specific way to deal with armor, I suppose.

Compared to "Mozambique", pelvic girdle has the advantage of offering a larger target area, but putting rounds in either place would ruin some armor-clad-zombie's day.

There's a reason that failure-to-stop drills are used for training. Failure to stop.

If you're intent on firing one shot to center mass and thus ending the fight, then. you're living in a dream land. Regardless of the state of your assailant, there's a high probability that he or she may not know they've been shot, let alone incapacitated.

You keep firing until the threat is down. If two shots in apid succession to center mass don't have an intended effect, then a shot to the head is intended to interrupt the central nervous system.

A pelvic shot is intended to disable.

A friend responded to a call of domestic violence, and arrived to find the suspect approaching his car. My friend ordered the suspect to stop. The suspect opened the car door and reached inside. My friend fired one round, striking the suspect in the pelvis, and it dropped the suspect. It turned out tha the suspect was reaching for a shotgun inside the car. My friend won the day, and the after action review.

If your shots aren't stopping the threat, then you need to do something. Moving for cover may be an option. It may not. You can keep putting rounds center mass, and probably should put a string in there, but if the threat is active and you need it stopped right now, then the mozambique, or FTF drill, two to the body and one to the head, is a good place to start.

It's what you train for, right?

Start center mass and muzzle climb for headshots?

quote:

My question is, are there pistol rounds that can temporarily disable or distract an assailant with soft body armor long enough for a more precise follow-up shot?

@Ranger41: The smartalec in me says, “Well 50AE or S&W 500 magnum might get his attention, but can you shoot those effectively? How ‘bout concealing them? Or carrying all day?”

quote:

And to clarify, you're not necessarily shooting for the "groin". You're shooting for the pelvic girdle, which is the bone structure of the pelvis, lying between the hips and between roughly the groin and the navel. This is a primary load-bearing structure of the body, and is also one of the largest bones and most painful bones to break. If you shatter their pelvis, in addition to it being extremely painful, their body is physically unable to remain standing. There are also major veins and arteries that run through that area. Plus, the pelvis is a larger and more stationary target than the head, making it potentially easier to hit when you're having to transition to that secondary target because center mass hits aren't working and you suspect they may be armored.

@RogueJSK: I agree with most everything you said about why the pelvic girdle is a good alternative target. The only thing I think I remember reading and/or hearing at a class was that most handgun rounds will usually just drill a hole through the pelvis as they aren’t moving fast enough to shatter it. With a rifle, shattering the pelvis is much more likely, due to the higher velocities involved. I’m sure a hole in the pelvis is much better than a bruise behind a vest, and if one happened to poke a hole in a femoral artery or the abdominal aorta, the perp would be ceasing his hostile action due to blood loss relatively quickly. It just might not immediately knock the pins out from under him.

ETA:

quote:

Originally posted by SIG4EVA:
Start center mass and muzzle climb for headshots?

Some agencies teach working up and down the midline until you get the desired effect.

If one must shoot, it probably makes sense to understand the pros and cons of the different targets, have a plan, start dumping rounds onto your target of choice and evaluating the results as you do. If you see you’re not getting the results you want, switch to an alternative target. Of course sometimes you may be limited in what targets are available to you.

In the training class I participated in this past June, we were training shooting modified Mozambique drills for this very reason. Three to center mass, one to the pelvic girdle, and one to the head. Breaking a bone in the pelvic girdle makes it extremely difficult for a person to continue walking. At 5 yards it takes me just over a second to draw and make my first shot and four more shots at .2 second splits all in their respective 4” a zones. When I go faster my accuracy drops considerably. Overall, I’m ok with 5 placed shots in @ 2.5 seconds from holster.

a man has got to know his limitations .

before you get in the car to go ...where ever.
before you get to . . . .where ever.

you have to know if and when you are going to fight or flight.

that decision alone will will have a great deal to do with what is going where to stop ,slow or completely abate an attack.

my distance used to be 45 feet , now its only 20 ,
I am tall so shooting at a target at 40 inches works great in the event that I miss or the shot goes through,
I know it will most likely go to the floor or pavement.

but if there is nothing beyond the target,
higher on the target works better

“You keep firing until the threat is down. If two shots in rapid succession to center mass don't have an intended effect, then a shot to the head is intended to interrupt the central nervous system.”

Practice what you intend to use - two to center of mass and then as many as required to head shots. Personally, I do 2+2 in practice. I do not make any judgment as to hits, just do it until the threat stops!

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
Plus, the pelvis is a larger and more stationary target than the head, making it potentially easier to hit when you're having to transition to that secondary target because center mass hits aren't working and you suspect they may be armored.

I just heard the echo of something coaches kept telling us back in school: If you want to know which way they're going to go, watch the hips, not the head. The head can turn in any direction, but to commit to moving in a given direction, they have to commit their hips first. One of the takeaways from that was that hips tend to be marginally more stationary and move more slowly than heads.

The only other difference I can tell from the target range is that it takes slightly more conscious thought and effort to move the sights down from the chest rather than up towards the head. Part of that is recoil, but it also seems physically smoother to go up rather than down. Then again, maybe that's just bad habits from Mozambiquing on paper.

Liberty civil defence 9mm.

Video shows it defeating level 3

https://youtu.be/Nr6h44Pu4sM

.

And shooting to the pelvic area won't stop your assailant from shooting at you. Well, I guess it could, but not like a good head shot.

Also, I would like to see some real evidence that a 45 ACP round is less likely to "distract" an assailant than the .357 SIG/.357 Magnum round to the chest while wearing soft armor.

There's a high probability that your assailant will NOT be wearing body armor. If you plan your ammunition to defeat body armor, and your assailant wears none, when how do you account for the collateral damage, injury, or loss of life to others, with the over-penetration that your ammunition will have on a less-hardened target?

Center mass, and if that's not working, shift the point of aim.

In all cases, shot placement is everything.

I bought some of the Liberty Civil Defense rounds a few months ago. And they still appear to be available on their website if you're interested.

Keep it simple: Double tap to center mass, then one round to the head.
At typical (if there is such a thing) pistol engagement distances, this will do fine.
The Pelvic Girdle shot can work too.