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Member |
I feel pretty similarly. I actually like what a lot of brands have done in that they mandate that a business must sell their products at no less than a certain price regardless of whether it is an online or brick and mortar retailer. I've gotten into woodworking in a fairly big way over the last year. I've purchased a Sawstop cabinet saw and a number of Festool products who both mandate that their authorized retailers not sell below a certain price. I actually like both of these companies' products based on their own merits but I actually like their pricing rules too. People shouldn't just buy a table saw or a router or whatever other woodworking tool without putting their hands on one and seeing if they really like it. If these pricing policies were not in place you know that a ton of people would go to a brick and mortar retailer and put their paws all over a product to see if they like it and then buy online to save a hundred bucks on a three thousand dollar table saw from a company that knows nothing about the product that they are selling and likely is just a middleman that sets up a drop shipment from the manufacturer without even having to carry any inventory. This would lead to the brick and mortar stores eventually being unable to sell these products. Personally I think it's a rather nasty byproduct of the rampant commercialism and consumerism that has permeated the American culture. People are only short term thinkers and don't think about long term consequences. The internet has allowed people to buy things that they really shouldn't be able to afford. The people get a good feeling in the short term from acquiring something which they perceive will up their status, but the long term consequences make it more unlikely that regular people will be able to continue to afford such purchases in the future. In my opinion if someone can't afford to buy an item at a reasonable price and will only buy it at a loss leader price then they probably can't afford to buy the item. Also in terms of car shopping, yes I absolutely shop around. However I've done most of my research before I've ever walked through the doors of the car dealer and pretty much know what I want. I don't barrage the salesperson with a bunch of questions and take a ridiculous amount of their time. I simply ask what their price is and possibly counter with my price. If I can't get a price that I'm happy with I continue shopping. But I've not taken much time from the salesperson and I would absolutely buy if the price was right. Also if I do shop around for better pricing, I will buy from the dealer with the best service if their prices are similar. For example I bought a truck from a dealer whose overall price was three hundred dollars more than the competition because I took up more of the higher priced dealers time and was impressed by their customer service. I guess I get frustrated because I'm willing to pay for customer service but increasingly I'm unable to do so because people demand goods at unreasonable prices which makes it impossible for me to purchase customer service at any price. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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quarter MOA visionary |
You are missing the point. Yes, it moral issue too. Going to a brick and mortar first, to sample the merchandise first, work over a salesman for knowledge with the INTENT to buy elsewhere, Internet or otherwise is wrong. Not the same as doing your homework first online and giving a retailer a shot. Trying on clothes in a store with the intent to buy online - c'mon.  | |||
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| Made from a different mold  |
What salesman? What knowledge or wisdom are they imparting upon me? Not much of a point that you are making, especially when I am really trying to give a brick & mortar store my business but they price themselves out of an acceptable range. Sometimes it works out in their favor but more often than not, a 25% cost over any other retailer means I will probably go get it from the cheaper place. Maybe I'm a dick for expecting more for my money but I don't think so. I would say that retailers need to be more honest in their pricing and not mark things up 100-200%. Now that is moral corruption to me. Again, I'll use the $45 Levi's and $90 Levi's. Same exact model, size, color, country of origin....why should I pay the extra $45 for the exact same thing? I can go to JCP or Kohls and never come across a person that is willing nor capable of helping me in any meaningful way, so why buy from them? Just because I tried something on in their store? Come on! If they want, they can charge me $10 to enter the store just to try something on and I would still come out ahead. What happens when you give the retailer a shot and they still come up short? Should I just suck it up and spend my entire budget when I don't really have too? ___________________________ No thanks, I've already got a penguin. | |||
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Ball Haulin' |
There are certain places I will gladly pay a premium price for a product I can get online. REI is one of them. The additional cost for me is acceptable due tomthe level of customer service and knowledge I get. Local "Mom and Pop" stores get my business too even if the price may be a bit higher for something. A local town clothing store comes to mind. Why do I spend say $15-20 more on a dress shirt there or maybe a few extra bucks on dress socks for work? Its because when myself or my wife stop in every year to ask for contributions to high school fundraisers, they always open up their checkbook. It works both ways. Now if we're talking about a chain store that really provides no service but has glamorized stock clerks...thats a different discussion. -------------------------------------- "There are things we know. There are things we dont know. Then there are the things we dont know that we dont know." | |||
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safe & sound |
I don't get it either. It's not like those brick and mortar places have any overhead that those internet guys don't. The landlords donate the space to them. The government covers all of the costs associated with compliance. The utility companies support local businesses by providing them free utilities. I even heard that insurance companies were paying local businesses to be covered. So screw those guys who are trying to get rich by charging more than those internet places! | |||
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| Made from a different mold |
I get your point, but even warehouse businesses have overhead, just not as much. It's their business model. It seems to be working too. Is it acceptable practice to charge 2-3x as much for a product because a business has an actual retail space? Imagine everyone's surprise when they go to their local gun shop and see a Glock 19 that costs $900-1000 and oh yeah, it's just a stock Glock, not some Zev or SAI version. I've heard it said on this forum before that running a business with such practices will lead to its quick demise. Why should department stores be any different? Now, if you offer a product and service that isn't easy to come by on the internet, then I wholly support your mission. ___________________________ No thanks, I've already got a penguin. | |||
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| quarter MOA visionary |
You must be a Millennial, just a guess. | |||
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| Member |
I'll be honest, as convenient as amazon can be on certain things, if I had the option to eliminate online retailers tomorrow and leave only brick and mortar retail I would. As long as the brick and mortar retailers are open seven days a week, with some hours up until 8:00 or 9:00 PM I don't think I'd really be missing much in terms of convenience. Sometimes I like and enjoy buying something on a whim. You just don't get instant gratification like that with online retailing. Also I don't like buying something that I can't put my hands on first - returns are just too big a pain in the ass for me. Honestly the only thing I routinely buy online is parts for things. It's still enough to justify amazon prime membership, and I don't feel bad because most of those things that I buy I would have to wait for if I went to a retail establishment or would have to drive a while to go to an establishment that carries what I need. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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Corgis Rock |
Brick & mortar stores have the advantage of easy returns and trouble shooting. If I'm certain or my buy, or it's a product the brick &mortar stores don't carry, I buy online. “ The work of destruction is quick, easy and exhilarating; the work of creation is slow, laborious and dull. | |||
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| Member |
I thought Wisconsin; but Wikipedia says he opened his first store in Wyoming. I remember that purchase well; told the clerk I wanted a 12 gauge Ithaca 37, modified choke, plain barrel and he had it on the counter in 30 seconds. JCP was also my first stop for clothes until the early 2000s. | |||
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His Royal Hiney |
I'm not a Millennial, just a believer that a capitalist system works on the basis of everyone acting on their best self-interests. To you guys who are advocating that consumers should not buy from the internet after comaprison shopping at brick and mortar locations, are you also advocating that employers not buy labor resources after comparison shopping against their local employees? Those employees have brick and mortar homes, they've had those employees working there for quite some time. It's the same thing: one party sources for resources they need and comparison shops. They may even bring in a candidate for several interviews but, in the end, decides to outsource it to Sanjeev over in India. Capitalists shouldn't have a problem with a business choosing the lowest costs for it's supply of labor and other consumables. In the same way, capitalists shouldn't have a problem with a consumer choosing the lowest costs for their supply of goods and services. There's no morality play here. All the participants are willing and are aware of the other parties possible moves. I buy ink cartridges for my printer. I looked them up at Amazon. I thought I saw lower prices at Costco. I go to Costco regularly anyways so next time I go, I ask where the ink cartridges are. I take an employee's time to take me to the right aisle. I start looking for the cartridges and the employee asked me what printer I have and he quickly finds the cartridges for it. I see Costco's price after I break down the per unit costs is higher than what I can get from Amazon with 2 day free shipping and return. Am I morally obligated to buy from Costco since I went to their store and taken up an employee's time? No. Costco knows my other option. Costco proposition is I can get the cartridges now at a higher price versus waiting 2 days to get the cartridges from Amazon at a lower price. I'm in the market for a new gun that I'm not familiar with. Being that I'm not familiar with the gun, I ask a lot of questions at the first gun store I go to that the salesperson answers. I fondle the gun. I go to the next gun store. I see they have the same gun I'm interested in. I don't need to ask the same questions I asked before at the first store. I don't need to handle the gun as much as I did at the first store. But I do see the second store has the same gun for a lower price than the first store and i'm already there. But am I obligated to go back to the first store and buy the gun at their higher price because they spent more time and overhead on me than the second store? No. I'm there already at the second store with the lower price. I'm going ot buy it from them. "It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life, and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life – daily and hourly. Our answer must consist not in talk and meditation, but in right action and in right conduct. Life ultimately means taking the responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and to fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual." Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, 1946. | |||
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| safe & sound |
Right. So go try on your clothes at the warehouse business, and quit wasting the resources of the local brick and mortars. You can't have it both ways. This is also exactly why I have refused to have a showroom open to the public. Who looses? The consumer. I don't. | |||
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| Made from a different mold |
For the record: NOT A MILLENNIAL, but hey, it's cool to think that everyone with a differing opinion is a millennial. Nobody has given me a good reason for any brick & mortar store to be so off on their prices, over any other business model! I understand businesses that offer a product that no one else does, you can charge a premium for that. I also understand a business that has exceptional customer service, provides a service along with the product that they sell, and has great product knowledge. What I really have a hard time with, is a chain business that has the exact same product as 100 other retailers (local or online) and believes they will be successful by charging 2-3 times as much money, with no value added! It isn't about a consumer using a businesses resources such as mortgage, insurance, taxes, utilities, and other such overhead. Every business has an overhead. Some have more, some have less! I believe a business should be allowed to charge what they want, but not be shocked when their overcharging reaches a point that causes them to go tits up. We will never be on the same sheet of music because I think everyone is either glossing over my posts or reading into them what they want. I have explained that I will buy locally at a brick & mortar store if the item is what I was looking for to begin with and within a certain price range. I WILL NOT, however, buy exactly the same thing at TWICE the price of an item online...I just don't have the money to do so. There are many of us on a budget that would love to be able to pay whatever price is asked of us, but that's not reality. In my world, a price difference of $45 dollars for a pair of blue jeans is another pair of blue jeans, so please don't chide me because I know how to live within my means. Now, I am off to other things, lest I be spanked by the talon'd one! ___________________________ No thanks, I've already got a penguin. | |||
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| Member |
This is a VERY astute analysis. May 2015 I decided to lose weight and get myself fit and as a result I've gone from an XL size shirt to a L. There was a time when Large was the most common shirt size for men and it was quite easy to find shirts in this size. Not anymore. It's now getting so difficult to find a size Large shirt that in another year or two I'll be ordering them on the Net. Yeah, I do get that there is an Obesity Epidemic going on with a lot of two legged Whales walking around. However there still is a rather substantial segment of the population who care about being healthy and retailers who fail to understand that can fail and I won't shed one single tear for them. I've stopped counting. | |||
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| Member |
Aw man, I love their towels. GOD/Israel, family, 2nd amendment rights: in that order. Tennessee -ELOHIM IS MY GOD! | |||
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| quarter MOA visionary |
You may not be but you have no concept of channels of distribution and business in general. This whole thing was NEVER about a price on the Internet vs the price at a B&M. Everyone can make their own buying decisions. It WAS about USING a B&M facility with the intent to NEVER buy from them. Going to a store and trying on clothes with no intent to buy there and then clicking on Amazon.  We all have our own ethics standard and some have none. | |||
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| Member |
I guess for me if it's a product that I need to try on, or otherwise physically manipulate I will only consider buying from a store with a physical inventory. I don't think it's right for me to shop at a store with a physical inventory to save the potential hassle of having to return something that isn't right only to buy the item from an online retailer even if it's substantially cheaper. For me it's not a direct comparison because the online store doesn't offer an inventory to sort through and maintaining an inventory costs money which must be passed onto the customer. “It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” | |||
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| Big Stack |
I look at it differently. If a B&M store can get someone in the door, even if the customer is showrooming, but can't make a sale, they're bad retailers.
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| Big Stack |
Yeah, you do lose. I'm sure you've chased away a good chunk of business you never knew you lost.
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| safe & sound |
What little is lost would be consumed by the overhead. I have had several friends close their brick and mortars for the same reason. They were tired of people wanting their expertise and a place to fat finger the items while going back home and ordering online. It has worked out great for me. People want internet pricing, and I give it. But you'll order it via e-mail the same way you'll buy from any other online retailer. No showroom. No coming in to look at the product (unless I have absolutely nothing else going on and want to invite somebody out). This allows me to focus on people who actually want to spend money, and limit my exposure to those who want to nickle and dime every purchase they make. | |||
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