quote:

Originally posted by Sig209:

quote:

Originally posted by rat2306:

.375 H&H at least. I remember reading ages ago of an elephant in captivity that went rogue, I want to say in Hawaii. Responding officers of that day had only Winchester 94s in .30-30 available from the photo. All in all, a very sad tragedy.

I lived in Hawaii when that happened in 1994 - Tyke the elephant rampaged the downtown area in / around the Blaisdell Arena. Very intense.

Video shows the HPD officers with (i think) 30-30s and Benelli shotguns. Their issued handgun at the time was a 9mm Smith and Wesson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxLi9C7ygyk

--------------------------------------

Thanks, that was the account I recalled but couldn't place the year.

Interesting, it took only 7 rounds of .40 from Sig pistols to put down Tatiana, the Siberian tiger in the 2007 incident at the SF Zoo. 2 to the head, 5 to the chest. Not sure what kind of ammo they used.

I remember hearing the story break on the police scanner. A dispatcher asked if an officer had any shotgun slugs. (He didn't. I was ready to drive over and lend some of mine.)

I watched a video one time where a guy shot a lion with a 338 Win mag. It than rolled over about 1 1/2 times than got back up and continued the charge at full throttle. Not something I would want to mess with.

quote:

Originally posted by jhe888:
Lions aren't that thick skinned or heavily built, but it goes without saying that they are dangerous.

30-06 is probably adequate, but I'd like a .33 bore (like .338 Win Mag), or even a .375 H&H for them. The 9.3x62 is a classic medium bore round.

A 30-06 is definitely not adequate.
At a minimum every hunting guide in Africa will require a .375 Or even better a .416

I keep a 375H&H and a 416 Rigby in my arsenal because I can. Never shot anything with either.

If the lion sits still for one shot would't a well place high velocity bullet like a ar 556 f incapacitate it.

Would a 556 bounce off a skull bone..not penetrate brain??

That's a tragedy. I was very sorry to hear the intern had passed.

No, shotgun is not the best. A few years ago, I talked in depth with an employee at a large-animal rescue place not far from here, but very far from much of anything. In case of emergency, they can't figure on fast arrival of support, so they secure multiple high-powered rifles - not shotguns - in multiple places in the compound, and all employees know how to get at them, and how to use them.

I cannot imagine that a 5.56 bullet wouldn’t penetrate the skull if it didn’t hit near the edge and be deflected. It would be a small target, though, and require a pretty accurate hit.

5 shots with a 223/556 in the chest area would put it down. I guess concern about collateral bullet strikes might be an issue. It would be bleeding internally at a good rate.

quote:

Originally posted by Hangtime:
If the lion sits still for one shot would't a well place high velocity bullet like a ar 556 f incapacitate it.

Would a 556 bounce off a skull bone..not penetrate brain??

FWIW ... 5.56 is designed (canular and other features) to fragment. Otherwise it’s an ice pick. Not my choice for hunting much of anything. Furthermore, fragmentation only occurs at the proper terminal velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
I cannot imagine that a 5.56 bullet wouldn’t penetrate the skull if it didn’t hit near the edge and be deflected. It would be a small target, though, and require a pretty accurate hit.

Use a steel tipped 556. Its a small projectile otherwise but it pack a lot of power. At least that the impression what I get when I shoot it.

The 5.56 military round may be designed to fragment, but there are many 223 Remington bullets that expand like other hunting bullets. That hardly makes it ideal for killing rogue lions, but based on my personal knowledge of what a bullet like the 62/64 grain Gold Dot does to automotive engines, I would not doubt its ability to penetrate a lion’s skull. (That bullet is significantly more effective in penetrating car windshields and bodies than the M855 bullet with its steel “penetrator.”)

One significant problem is that it seems few people understand where the brain of an animal like a lion is located in the head. The tales I hear from LEOs who have tried to euthanize injured elk with head shots make me cringe.

Killing a lion and stopping a lion whose adrenaline is up are two very different things.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
The 5.56 military round may be designed to fragment, but there are many 223 Remington bullets that expand like other hunting bullets. That hardly makes it ideal for killing rogue lions, but based on my personal knowledge of what a bullet like the 62/64 grain Gold Dot does to automotive engines, I would not doubt its ability to penetrate a lion’s skull.

One significant problem is that it seems few people understand where the brain of an animal like a lion is located in the head. The tales I hear from LEOs who have tried to euthanize injured elk with head shots make me cringe.

What round do police departments typically carry? Where I live it’s often been the mid-weight Hornady round; perhaps it is bonded but I’m not sure. I was given a few boxes some years ago but I forget the details.

quote:

Originally posted by SIGnified:
What round do police departments typically carry?

I can’t answer “typically,” but I know it varies. One agency I’m familiar with just issues something like M193 (55 grain FMJ). I spent a lot of time researching the issue for my agency, and that’s why I settled on the Gold Dot after deciding that nonbonded bullet loads were marginal at best if someone in/behind a vehicle had to be engaged. We started with a Winchester Silvertip load, then moved to Hornady 55 grain TAP. I decided that both were just too light and frangible for situations that might involve any sort of barrier.

We also issue a quantity of 55 gn. FMJ if someone goes through the 60 rounds of Gold Dot. (Yes, highly unlikely—we hope—but ….)

What a clusterfuck! Getting an intern killed, owner's dart gun jammed, owner's back-up plan is a frickin' blowgun, LEOs shotguns taking forever to do the job, and fire fighters having to use a hose to keep the animal away from the intern.

quote:

Originally posted by smlsig:
At a minimum every hunting guide in Africa will require a .375 Or even better a .416

^^ THIS ^^

If you own a public or private zoo with dangerous game you need to have a large bore magnum rifle (.375 H&H or greater) readily available and several people need to know how to use it. Depending on deputies with 9mm and 5.56 or 12 ga buckshot is asinine.

quote:

Originally posted by Bigboreshooter:
Killing a lion and stopping a lion whose adrenaline is up are two very different things.

This....nothing less than a 3" Brenneke thank you...I would prefer something starting with a .4.

Would you use 5.56 to stop a bear charge....sure it it's in your hands. Sounds like they used buckshot, a solid shoulder shot with a decent slug should at least slow a lion down...

Watch a few elephant charges where the hunter drops it...the shock of the M.E. does the trick and something around 5K ft lbs works nicely thank you.

I can't believe they waited for him to get a blow gun....um sorry ....people are more important and that one was down and non responsive.

Thx Sigfreund. I personally shoot 77g in a 1:7 barrel. Some TAP and a lot of the BH MK 262 Mod 1 Ammo (for range, have hit 1100 yds w a LaRue upper for kicks).


As for bear, I know a hunter who dumped 8 rnds of .300winmag into a Kodiak. Skidded to a stop Right at his his feet - no joke.

Ohio dangerous animal escape

In this instance, AFAIK, all the dangerous animals (18 Tigers, 17 Lions, 8 Bears, 3 Cougars, 2 Wolves, 1 Baboon, 1 Macaque) were put down with .223 TAP, shotguns (probably with slugs) and service pistols (probably .40).

quote:

Originally posted by dewhorse:

quote:

Originally posted by Bigboreshooter:
Killing a lion and stopping a lion whose adrenaline is up are two very different things.

This....nothing less than a 3" Brenneke thank you...I would prefer something starting with a .4.

Would you use 5.56 to stop a bear charge....sure it it's in your hands. Sounds like they used buckshot, a solid shoulder shot with a decent slug should at least slow a lion down...

Watch a few elephant charges where the hunter drops it...the shock of the M.E. does the trick and something around 5K ft lbs works nicely thank you.

I can't believe they waited for him to get a blow gun....um sorry ....people are more important and that one was down and non responsive.

I would use the biggest hammer available. To me a well placed shot is the best shot. I'd be crapping if a bear was charging and I had an ar.

I was thinking if they were shooting as it sounds at safe rest outside of enclosure then well placed 556 rounds would wind it down pretty quick.

But to me buck shot it to pieces if thats what you have. Distance could have been considerable.

Sounds like the officers may have been ifluenced by others as to how much lead how fast.