What if Hitler didn't meddle in development of the ME262 in 1941? How many B17 crewmen would have perished in air combat over Germany?

Link to footage of ME262 flying over Berlin in 2005...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FA1yCfz9s4

Wouldn't have mattered. The real problem was that the Me 262 was simply too advanced for Germany's limited technological capabilities and scarce raw materials, which led to significant delays in its development and severe limitations in its production.

This video does a good job briefly running through the reasons that the Me-262 failed to have much of an impact, and concludes that Hitler's meddling wasn't a factor.




Link to original video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSIgldbu5QU

The -262 was a good aircraft, but it would not have been enough to alter the course of the war. More allied aircrew would have died, but we still would have won. Not even a dozen nukes (and the US only had 3 in the entire war) would have stopped the Red Army from marching on Germany. . .

Hitler himself was the problem. Germany arose from the ashes of Versailles to become a huge economic power. Its industry, technology, and mass-production capacity led Europe and most of the world in the 1930s. So why could Germany not produce its wonder weapons in significant numbers? The problem was not capability. Rather, it was the restrictions and obstacles Hitler placed on German industry that affected the production time line of extremely sensitive weapons. Four reasons behind Germany's lack of production: political and military interference; the difficulty of mass producing advanced weapons; a lack of strategic vision; and finally, damage and dispersion resulting from the Allies' Combined Bomber Offensive. Any one of the reasons was enough to hamper generating high-technology arms; all four in concert were absolutely crippling.

Political interference was a great obstacle to producing weapon systems and was particularly fatal to advanced systems that required long development times. The political obstruction started early and at the top of the Nazi hierarchy. On 11 February 1940, Hitler canceled all development work that could not get aircraft to the front within 1 year. Work stopped on a half dozen major projects, from jets to long-range bombers, all of which would have made the Luftwaffe more capable of fighting a lengthy war. When Germany became desperate for advanced weapons, its hurried response would produce aircraft that had not benefited from full development processes. So confident in early victory were Germany's leaders that they cut the legs out from under the Luftwaffe before the major war really started, denying it any chance of victory in a drawn-out conflict.

High-level conflicts marked the Nazi regime, as Hitler dueled with his advisors for control of the German military's strategic direction. Hitler cut through many of these disagreements by removing dissenters and consolidating power to himself. For example, he already had taken command of military operations when he took control of critical production programs. Although Hitler had a weak technical knowledge of aviation, he realized the importance of jet engines and personally controlled jet engine allocation after June 1944. His tight control took allocation away from production experts. The result was haphazard distribution to manufacturers and operational units, with a corresponding drop in production and aircraft in-service rates. Compounding Hitler's central control was his top officials' fear of or refusal to confront him on decisions they knew were wrong. At best, dissenters received Hitler's extreme verbal abuse, at worst, removal from office. By 1943, Hitler distrusted the Luftwaffe, and there were many cases of Hermann Goering's passively watching Hitler sow the seeds of his air force's destruction. Even the outspoken Erhard Milch, chief of Luftwaffe production, took orders without objection. When Hitler uncanceled the Me 209 program in August 1943, Milch said, "But I have my orders. I am a soldier and must obey them." He knew the restart would split Messerschmitt's production between an obsolescent fighter that would never see operational service (the 209) and a potential war winner (the 262). The best and most damaging example of this phenomenon is seen in the saga to produce the Me 262.

High-level interference and bickering were not the only impediments to production. The Luftwaffe's officers contributed as well. Galland remembers rival fanatical groups within the officer corps, some more dedicated to Nazi idealism than actually producing an effective air force. This led to a crisis of trust and leadership, two elements on which depends the fighting strength of any unit. Its result was no single voice speaking for the operational and strategic needs of the Luftwaffe; it also made it difficult for the Luftwaffe to present a united front to deflect high-level interference in weapons programs. Furthermore, we often remember the Luftwaffe as an honorable band of eagles. However, several pilots accepted checks from aircraft companies to endorse their products--planes that were often inferior. This, combined with Goering's financial interest in several aviation factories, meant Germany based production choices on personal profit, rather than capabilities. Making inferior planes not only put the Luftwaffe further behind but also took assembly line space away from advanced projects. Military interference also played on a grander scale before the war even started by creating a war industry that could not meet the demands of mass production.

When you factor these details together, wonder weapons aside, the Reich did themselves in.

What if Hitler hadn't double crossed Russia? That would have made a difference and even that wouldn't have lasted forever with the egos involved.
The smaller technical issues mean little by comparison.

quote:

Originally posted by 220-9er:
What if Hitler hadn't double crossed Russia? That would have made a difference and even that wouldn't have lasted forever with the egos involved.
The smaller technical issues mean little by comparison.

If Germany hadn't double-crossed Russia, Russia would gave done so to Germany. Theirs was an 'allegiance' based on convenience. Russia gave Germany space to train aircrews, test armor, etc. Germany gave Russia weapons and technology.

The thing that stands out to me is that Germany wiped out 90% of the Red Air Force in the first week of their invasion. Germany had a very short-ranged air force (they could only escort bombers across 80% of the UK during the Battle of Britain ). How, then, were 90% of Soviet aircraft in range of the short-range Germans? My theory is that Stalin was fixing to invade Germany. Hitler just moved first.

Nazism and Soviet communism (as were Hitler and Stalin) were mutually exclusive. War between the two was inevitable, IMO.

Harry S Truman held sterner views toward the German-Soviet alliance.

"If we see that Germany is winning the war, we ought to help Russia; and if that Russia is winning, we ought to help Germany, and in that way let them kill as many as possible. . . ." he said as a Senator in 1941..

What if Hitler hadn't have taken the Yugoslavian resistance personally and delayed Operation Barbarossa a month to deal with Belgrade? There was nothing strategic about the Balkans campaign, so nothing was gained by delaying the invasion of the Soviet Union. The Wehrmacht was within sight of Moscow in 1940, and would have taken it had the winter weather been delayed for a couple more weeks. Weeks lost at the beginning in the Balkans.

What if Hitler had bypassed Stalingrad? What if the 6th army had of withdrawn?

What if Hitler had focused on the middle east and Africa, capturing Egypt & Syria, and cut off Suez Canal traffic, with absolute control of the Med? The U.K. would have been crippled, loosing its oil supply and the short route to most of its empire.

I don't think the ME262 alone would have made much of a difference. The British weren't far behind with the Meteor.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
The British weren't far behind with the Meteor.

Or the US with the Shooting Star.

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:
What if Hitler didn't meddle in development of the ME262 in 1941? How many B17 crewmen would have perished in air combat over Germany?

Link to footage of ME262 flying over Berlin in 2005...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FA1yCfz9s4

I was thinking someone had to be a brave soul to fly a 262 with those death-trap engines. But listening to the announcer during the flight, he stated that the only difference between that plane and an original was the engines. He didn't state what engines they were using.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
The British weren't far behind with the Meteor.

Or the US with the Shooting Star.

The US P-80 used the British Whittle jet engine. We had P-80s in Europe right before VE Day, so the -262 only would have given the Germans a short-term superiority.

Besides, we had hundreds of B-29s that could have been used against Germany, but they weren't needed there.


The delay in taking Moscow was the biggest mistake Germany (meaning, Hitler personally) made. Had the German Army taken Moscow, the war would have been vastly different.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:
What if Hitler didn't meddle in development of the ME262 in 1941? How many B17 crewmen would have perished in air combat over Germany?

Link to footage of ME262 flying over Berlin in 2005...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FA1yCfz9s4

I was thinking someone had to be a brave soul to fly a 262 with those death-trap engines. But listening to the announcer during the flight, he stated that the only difference between that plane and an original was the engines. He didn't state what engines they were using.

The "Me-262s" flying today are high fidelity replicas, 5 of which were built in the late 1990s/early 2000s. They had only 2 significant differences from the 1945 originals - a strengthened nose gear strut (originals were inherently too weak) and modern engines. They are not antique aircraft. The engines were designed to mimic the 1945 Jumo engines' performance, so flying a new one is (theoretically) identical to flying an original.

And the originals weren't that dangerous. IIRC, they didn't explode when their engines failed - they just stopped working forcing the pilot to make a perfectly safe 1-engine landing (safe unless a P-51 happened to find the pilot in a crippled aircraft).

Some Me-262s were shot down in straight-up dogfights, but allied pilots found out quickly that they were incredibly vulnerable while taking off and landing. Their early engines had lousy acceleration, requiring a long takeoff run and time to get to combat speed. On landing, they were fat and slow, and could not easily accelerate away if they were bounced.

The Germans had piston engined fighters stationed to protect the -262s at their airfields, and they put a lot of flak guns on the landing approaches to protect landing aircraft.

The -262 was an innovative weapon, but was not a 'wonder weapon' that 'could have won Germany the war.'

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
What if Hitler hadn't have taken the Yugoslavian resistance personally and delayed Operation Barbarossa a month to deal with Belgrade? There was nothing strategic about the Balkans campaign, so nothing was gained by delaying the invasion of the Soviet Union. The Wehrmacht was within sight of Moscow in 1940, and would have taken it had the winter weather been delayed for a couple more weeks. Weeks lost at the beginning in the Balkans.

What if Hitler had bypassed Stalingrad? What if the 6th army had of withdrawn?

What if Hitler had focused on the middle east and Africa, capturing Egypt & Syria, and cut off Suez Canal traffic, with absolute control of the Med? The U.K. would have been crippled, loosing its oil supply and the short route to most of its empire.

I don't think the ME262 alone would have made much of a difference. The British weren't far behind with the Meteor.

What if hitler wasn't a meth head?

His fucked up mind compounded with dangerous and addictive chemicals and total power mixed in an unholy alliance to allow him to screw his country into the Earth.

He played everyone against the other, not good for group cohesion and forward progress, but he needed to be the center of power, so he did it.
Thereby he ruined his opportunity to rule the world.

It seemed like a good idea at the time because he was insane to begin with and like I mentioned, a meth head.

As to the 262, great idea, a little early as far as materials and development with a short range, but it was a jet and had potential. Shame hitler developed them as bombers and clusterfucked the delivery of the fighter version which was the original design and intent - not really, I'm actually laughing at him.

My Uncle was a tail gunner in a B17 that was shot down over Germany by a 262. A German family took him in and hide him in their basement until the war was over.

These kinda "if Hitler hadn't done X" kinda discussions always feel like a chicken/egg debate. I've seen it applied to all the "Vengeance" weapons, and even the STG-44 and Vampir system. "What if Hitler hadn't interfered with all his frontline guys getting STG-44's equipped with night vision?" Right. Without Hitler, there was no Nazi Germany. With Hitler, there was no Nazi German triumph. Founder's syndrome, it's called today.

It may be another thirty years or more before we know the true scope of what the Allies had cooking behind the scenes, there's still stuff being declassified. Much of what Hitler may or may not have done may not have mattered by the fall of '44, at least that's my feeling. The die was cast and Germany simply didn't have the resources. It was a grand gambit that might've worked had he not fucked with Russia.

My uncle's life was spared by a 262 pilot. That pilot started his career in the Desert campaign and lived to immigrate to Canada. He died in Vancouver less than 10 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by ChuckFinley:
My uncle's life was spared by a 262 pilot. That pilot started his career in the Desert campaign and lived to immigrate to Canada. He died in Vancouver less than 10 years ago.

Many Luftwaffe pilots were good and honorable men. They just had a lousy govt. I would be interested in hearing the details of your uncle's experience.

One German pilot found out some allied airmen were being held in a concentration camp. He was a bird colonel, and he went over there and DEMANDED they be released into his custody (to be sent to a POW camp). That took guts. It very easily could have ended badly for him.

quote:

Originally posted by ChuckFinley:
My uncle's life was spared by a 262 pilot. That pilot started his career in the Desert campaign and lived to immigrate to Canada. He died in Vancouver less than 10 years ago.

Your uncle was spared by Franz Stigler? I read "Higher Call" which tells that story. Which crew member was he? This is great! You never know who is on this forum.

quote:

Originally posted by ChuckFinley:
My uncle's life was spared by a 262 pilot. That pilot started his career in the Desert campaign and lived to immigrate to Canada. He died in Vancouver less than 10 years ago.

That wouldn't be Franz Stigler of the incredible Charlie Brown and Ye Olde Pub incident, would it?

I thought of Franz, too.

The book A Higher Call is one of the top 10 WWII books I've read (out of literally hundreds that I've read).

IIRC, the story of the Luftwaffe colonel and the concentration camp was from that book.