So.... I am having this debate on healthcare and the other guy wants to know why I don't think healthcare should be a right. I've got several things to say about this but I thought I'd get input from you folks. You always make me appear smarter than I am. Thanks

Jim

Because healthcare is provided at the expense and effort of other people. If we can lay claim to the fruits of another's labor without a voluntary equitable transfer of value, then no one is free and no one is equal. We have just re-entered the world of slavery.

What other right do you possess that requires someone else to provide it?

What gives you the right to compel someone else to care for you?

If it's a right that means that healthcare workers must provide care for you or face jail time or other criminal consequences.

What if there were no doctors or nurses - who would then be compelled to provide this 'right' to you?

The trouble with debating a Lefty or even a weak minded snowflake is their bumper sticker principles take time to logically dismantle. They are so busy emoting and aggressing, a logical sequence can hardly be established and even if it can be done, they will not accept truth if it interferes with what they want.

I don't think it's even a consideration. Everyone has access to healthcare. No need to make it a right. Hospitals can not turn you away for not being able to pay the bill.

I think you friend is saying FREE healthcare should be a right. I'd counter with nothing is free, everyone is still paying for it. Would you rather have the government be the clearinghouse for who gets paid, who/what is covered, and in which order people get care? I sure as hell would not want government rationed care.

Besides all that, name one thing. Just one thing that government has done efficiently? Think about how many agencies you would need. You'd need agencies to audit the agencies, that over see other agencies.

Russia has Healthcare as a right.. It seems to work really well there.

Just my opinion- you're wasting your time.

You may be right Para but I do think it can have an effect on others reading it. And they may use it as well.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
The trouble with debating a Lefty or even a weak minded snowflake is their bumper sticker principles take time to logically dismantle. They are so busy emoting and aggressing, a logical sequence can hardly be established and even if it can be done, they will not accept truth if it interferes with what they want.

This. I've tried over the past several years to "set lefties straight" on many, many different topics.

What I've found is that it's simply easier to unfollow their feeds, and if they continue to interject their nonsense into my posts, unfriend them. It's not worth the time, effort, or blood pressure. They will never get it.

Liberalism truly is a disease, curable only by death (natural causes here, I'm not advocating anything!).

I agree with Para. However, a right confers no obligation on others. To say one has a right to health care confers an obligation on another to provide healthcare, whether or not the provider desires to provide services.

A true right confers no obligation on another.

To argue otherwise is incorrect and exposes the individual arguing such as against freedom and for totalitarian dictates.

Why?
Why not ~ food?
Why not ~ clothing?
Why not ~ shelter?
Why not ~ cable tv?

posted March 26, 2017 11:15 AM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
What other right do you possess that requires someone else to provide it?

Not arguing for the right to Health care but I do think that the Sixth Amendment: People have a right to a speedy trial, to legal counsel, and to confront their accusers.

Implies that legal counsel must be provided. So someone else provides it.

It doesn't quite meet the definition of "compelled".

They aren't compelled to provide the defendant legal counsel, they could always dismiss the charges. They only have to provide free counsel if they insist on going forward with charges, which they are not obligated to do.

quote:

Originally posted by bcereuss:
I agree with Para. However, a right confers no obligation on others. To say one has a right to health care confers an obligation on another to provide healthcare, whether or not the provider desires to provide services.

A true right confers no obligation on another.

To argue otherwise is incorrect and exposes the individual arguing such as against freedom and for totalitarian dictates.

The bolded portion is probably the best response to a bumper sticker pseudo-principle. Distilled principle to counter bumper sticker scatacephally. That is a true art.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:
Not arguing for the right to Health care but I do think that the Sixth Amendment: People have a right to a speedy trial, to legal counsel, and to confront their accusers.

Implies that legal counsel must be provided. So someone else provides it.

It doesn't quite meet the definition of "compelled".

They aren't compelled to provide the defendant legal counsel, they could always dismiss the charges. They only have to provide free counsel if they insist on going forward with charges, which they are not obligated to do.

Interesting counter I haven't thought of before. I'll have to give it some thought.

we won't make much progress in this country until we stop thinking of health care as a right or a privilege. it is something that a functioning society needs to have at a reasonable level and we need to find a way to efficiently deliver it.

quote:

Originally posted by darthfuster:
Because healthcare is provided at the expense and effort of other people. If we can lay claim to the fruits of another's labor without a voluntary equitable transfer of value, then no one is free and no one is equal. We have just re-entered the world of slavery.

Well, there's no point in me typing the exact same thing. I'm going to repost this to start my own debate.

My adult daughter cut her hand this morning (0200). I took her to the hospital.she has Obamacare and finding a hospital that takes it was hard. The one we ended up at had two signs. They didn't take Medicare or Medicaid. If you didn't have the right insurance, they would stabilize you and transport you to another hospital.
Ask him "How do you define a right to health care?" Will it cover LASIK eye treatment? Plastic surgery? Gender reassignment? Dental?
Then ask: "What is the monetary limit?" There have been cases where a child has been born with little or now brain. There is no hope, a 100% fatality. The baby is kept alive by machine. The mother refuses to allow shutting the machines off. Does the right allow the baby to remain on the machines for decades? Then there are brain dead patients and those wth terminal illness. Do you kept them alive forever? Point out that ICU beds are limited. Each time one is emptied, it gets filled.
What about non-compliant patients? There's a case where Dad gave a kidney to his daughter. She felt the autoimmune drugs as she felt fat. The kidney failed. Dad offered his other kidney. He was in jail on a life sentence. His plan was to live on dialysis paid by the state.
As others have said, it's the same as talking to the wall. You get lots of slogans, be told to educate your self and then personal attacks.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken226:
posted March 26, 2017 11:15 AM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BamaJeepster:
What other right do you possess that requires someone else to provide it?

Not arguing for the right to Health care but I do think that the Sixth Amendment: People have a right to a speedy trial, to legal counsel, and to confront their accusers.

Implies that legal counsel must be provided. So someone else provides it.

It doesn't quite meet the definition of "compelled".

They aren't compelled to provide the defendant legal counsel, they could always dismiss the charges. They only have to provide free counsel if they insist on going forward with charges, which they are not obligated to do.

Sorry guys. The part of this post that reads:

"Not arguing for the right to Health care but I do think that the Sixth Amendment: People have a right to a speedy trial, to legal counsel, and to confront their accusers.

Implies that legal counsel must be provided. So someone else provides it."

Was my post. But after I read it decided to delete it as I felt it was wandering off topic and might come off as argumentative.

But it got quoted so just want to apologize for any confusion.

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
Just my opinion- you're wasting your time.

Yup, that whole arguing over the internet...

Health care is already being rationed in this country. Arguing about it is pointless. The question is who wants to pay the bill? It is rationed in the UK and Canada as well. In the UK the government pays for all prescription drugs for people over 65. The catch is that the government decides which drugs are paid for.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:
Why?
Why not ~ food?
Why not ~ clothing?
Why not ~ shelter?
Why not ~ cable tv?

This is called welfare. We are up to 3rd generation welfare people around here.

Where is the incentive to do it on your own?

Bob