quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Can individual members of religious groups like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the Baptists proclaim who is or is not a member of the same church?

Yes. Unequivocally.

You're mixing apples with oranges.

You're discussing on the one hand whether one is a proper member of a particular group, then in the quote above, ask if membership can be determined. Two very different things.

Either one is a member of the LDS church, or one isn't. It's not ambiguous. One might be a member that practices soemthing different, but one is still a member. One might attend the churcha and practice, but never seek membership. That person is not a member.

At a local range, one may shoot as a member, or non-member. This isn't a gray area. One either is, or is not.

One may be a member who doesn't follow the rules. One may be a member who doesn't vote. One may be a member who never uses his or her membership. One may be a member who was given the membership as a gift and doesn't even own a firearm...but that person is still a member. Someone who is not a member...is not a member. No gray area at all.

Member of LDS church but not practicing? Inactive or less active member. But still a member. Nothing ambiguous.

If one is registered as a republican, one might or might not follow a particular camp or support a particular candidate, but the fact remains, one is registered as a republican.

There seems to be a mindset among some that anyone who doesn't believe or think or talk along the same lines as that person is wrong. A co-worker told me that everyone who doesn't step in line should be executed, branded traitors, yada, yada. So much for a free country. RINO's, libtards, and every other mindless, immature ipithet and childish name out there gets used to put down or brand anyone that doesn't step in line with a particular camp.

As others noted above, simply for one person or group having made a statement or taken a stand, doesn't make it so. Membership in an organization, however, is easily verified and for most memberships, comes down to clearly defined criteria. It may be that they're a member in name only, but the fact remains, they are a member.

You make a valid point, sns3guppy, but I used words that have two or more different meanings when I asked the question you quoted. By “members” I was referring to adherents of a set of religious practices and beliefs, and by “church” I was referring to the faith system such as the Catholic Church, not a particular building or even congregation.
So, although you were correct in your commentary, you misunderstood my intended use of those words, just as someone might not know that “fruit” can refer to both apples and oranges, and not just one or the other. It’s an ironic coincidence, though, that the “fruit” of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil mentioned in Genesis has been depicted by countless artists and even theologians as just one: an apple.

Perhaps it would have been clearer if I had asked, “Can individuals who consider themselves to be Catholics or Lutherans or Baptists [that I actually did mention] decide that someone else who considers himself to be a Catholic, Lutheran, or Baptist, isn’t a true Catholic, Lutheran, or Baptist?” Note that I avoided the word “member” this time because I’m not referring to membership as if a religious self-identification was something like a club or other organization that has membership rosters, dues payments, formal qualification standards, etc.

I am either a member of the Fraternal Order of Police, or I’m not. In my early 20’s, though, I attended a Lutheran church regularly, tithed with my PFC salary, sang the hymns, recited the creeds (and believed them to the best of my mental capability), and I considered myself to be a Lutheran even though the church I attended didn’t have things like membership rolls. But was I? What if the man sitting next to me decided that I didn’t sing loudly enough, didn’t witness enough, didn’t attend the bible study classes, or failed my religious duties in some other manner? Could he decide that I wasn’t a true Lutheran? If he decided I wasn’t a Lutheran, would his opinion override my belief that I was?
That’s my question.

You are a sweet potato spread for a entree of a traditional Easter dinner. Put another way:

I yam what I ham.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
What if the man sitting next to me decided that I didn’t sing loudly enough, didn’t witness enough, didn’t attend the bible study classes, or failed my religious duties in some other manner? Could he decide that I wasn’t a true Lutheran? If he decided I wasn’t a Lutheran, would his opinion override my belief that I was?
That’s my question.

He could decide whatever he wants, that man sitting next to you, and it wouldn't alter the spin of the planet or your legitimate claim. It only states the man's own prejudices. Unless that man has the legitimate authority to determine membership, then he's little more than a talking head.

The LDS church does have membership, and one is either a member or one is not.

There is a tendency to let others narrate our lives. Strategic silence on the part of an officer fuels one's inherent need to say something. A claim in a magazine or on TV lends legitimacy, as if the claim is somehow more valid because someone or something has chosen to state or repeat it. This is us, giving up our own power of reason to another, just as one might do if one believes the man sitting next to you in church.

We live in an age of "likes," and some are weak enough to believe that it means something. Someone may like us or dislike us all day long, call us a member or not, tell us the sky is not blue or that we're not liberal or conservative or black or white enough. It doona make it so.

Judging a philosophy or world view by the behavior of its practitioners is a category error. One is an idea (or, more typically, an ideal) whereas the other is a person.

On the question of whether a person is a "true" adherent to or member of some group, you have to look to the defining criteria for membership in that group. Are they requirements or aspirations? One could validly object to a person who was not a lawyer representing someone in court (you are required to be a member of the Bar to do that), but one could not validly judge another person to not be "a real" Christian, for example, because being like Christ is an aspiration that no person can achieve.

At bottom, lots of things masquerading as facts are just opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by DaveL:
[O]ne could not validly judge another person to not be "a real" Christian, for example, because being like Christ is an aspiration that no person can achieve.

An excellent point that I will (try to) remember.
Thank you.