as food costs have escalated significantly $125/person is not out of the cost realm assuming quality ingredients. Margins are razor thin for proprietors especially smaller family owned establishments

Its easy to spend $30/person at a burger place

a wholesale case of chicken wings 3 yrs ago was about $60, that same case is closer to $170 now.

Im fortunate to be surrounded by great food, we have gas stations serving food better than many restaurants Ive been to around the country

I guess I’m a cheapskate. 250 bucks for the wife and I without alcohol I find to be a very pricy meal. If it was ok but not great I would feel robbed. As for margins I call bullshit. Expensive restaurants are padding their prices because they can. Here is a great example. No booze, 2 people, $250, the food was “ok”, and the OP isn’t really even complaining. Yikes.

I have a dozen restaurants I can eat near me that the meal is good and while not inexpensive, not 250 before booze. My wife isn’t eating a nice meal without a 15-20 dollar cocktail or two.

If the food doesn’t measure up, all the uniforms, wine pairings, and waterfront views in the world won’t make it a 5-star night. Food >>>

For $125/plate, I expect excellence across the board.
I’ve been to some obscure and not so obscure places, but trust me when I say I research if I’m going to be spending that amount of money, or it’s a known quantity to me already. I’ll take a risk if someone I trust who is also fine diner recommends a place- but I’ve been both pleasantly surprised and sadly disappointed in those instances.
For me, the experience has to encompass the service, the ambiance, and the food itself.
If one of those is off, it affects the entire experience. When that has happened, I found that the service is what irks me most?
I’ve had a fantastic meal. The environment is amazing, but the server is an ass? that throws me for a loop.. on the other hand, I’ve been to places where the food has been fabulous. The server has been fabulous. The atmosphere might be a dump, but I’ve been happy with it!
Also, where the server in the ambiance are great, but the food is meh. Still a glow.. but when the server is a jerk, it ruins everything for me.

And just a note - you probably already know this, but they research you, too, if you’re spending that kind of money. At least two or three of the places I’ve been to knew all about me before I got there -and I’d never been there before, or lived in that state/country..

living in an area with lots of foodie eatery's, diner for 2, one of 2 drinks each, is usually 80-150, depending on type of drinks and entree,


9x's of 10, or more, service and food are excellent,

even a couple of chains in this area are decent for what they are (longhorn's, Bonefish, tho bonefish has been not as good lately) and they tend to be, expectedly, a bit cheaper

quote:

Originally posted by Orguss:
Having said all that, I did once go to a 1-star Michelin rated Japanese restaurant in San Francisco and left seriously pissed off, wondering how it had achieved that award.

Damn, where was this?
Cities are a two-edged blade when it comes to dining scene. On one hand because there's a high concentration of chefs and other restaurant pro's there's a good bet that a renown place will deliver or, a small hole-in-the-wall can surprise everyone. The flip-side because cities are competitive markets for dining, its easy for restaurants to rest on past laurels and stumble.

Up in Rohnert Park is Hana, which was always really good especially when I could expense it. For top-tier Japanese, Kenzo in Napa is phenomenal, not only is the food excellent but the entire setting takes you to Japan.

quote:

Originally posted by lyman:
even a couple of chains in this area are decent for what they are (longhorn's, Bonefish, tho bonefish has been not as good lately) and they tend to be, expectedly, a bit cheaper

The only casual-upscale type chain that I've had really good luck with is the Houston-chain of restaurants. They're owned by the Hillstone Group that also owns Bandera Grill, Gulfstream and for whatever reason they've been able to get all their places to execute.

I've done a lot traveling and been to a lot of nice restaurants. To this day the best meal I've ever had was this:



It cost around $3 and I sat on a cheap plastic stool in a smoky alleyway in Zhejiang, PRC (went to see Pearl S. Buck's house). This was an Anthony Bourdain-like experience. I will go back and find this place when I'm in China again in December. Like with education, price does not equal quality.

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
It’s been my experience that not a single restaurant I used to enjoy before Covid hit in March of 2020 has ever been the same since. There’s now this very detectable malaise in the entire American restaurant industry now all the way from fast food up to fine dining. Something changed. It’s like no one is really into it any longer from the service to the food and the prices way way up don’t help either.

I know I can’t be the only one to sense this.

Yes, I have seen this too. I suspect it may be due to the higher food and labor costs restaurateurs have to endure these days, and the shame they feel for having to charge prices to cover their costs. It may well be that they can't even find experienced and competent employees acquainted with the style of food they offer. It appears that. at least in the DC area, that almost all kitchen and wait staff come from a central American country in even the finest of establishments. It isn't all bad if you like El Salvadorean/Guatemalan style meals, but it is hell on the Tex-Mex, or, God help me, anything European, Asian, or middle eastern.

quote:

Originally posted by architect:

quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
It’s been my experience that not a single restaurant I used to enjoy before Covid hit in March of 2020 has ever been the same since. There’s now this very detectable malaise in the entire American restaurant industry now all the way from fast food up to fine dining. Something changed. It’s like no one is really into it any longer from the service to the food and the prices way way up don’t help either.

I know I can’t be the only one to sense this.

Yes, I have seen this too. I suspect it may be due to the higher food and labor costs restaurateurs have to endure these days, and the shame they feel for having to charge prices to cover their costs. It may well be that they can't even find experienced and competent employees acquainted with the style of food they offer. It appears that. at least in the DC area, that almost all kitchen and wait staff come from a central American country in even the finest of establishments. It isn't all bad if you like El Salvadorean/Guatemalan style meals, but it is hell on the Tex-Mex, or, God help me, anything European, Asian, or middle eastern.

Actually, the last time I was at Daniel, our sommelier indicated that things like sunbasket et al were affecting their profits. This was 1 yr prior to Covid.

Depending on where I am, $250 for a meal can be reasonable, but a bad meal for $250 ensures I'd not be a repeat customer, as in every major city in the united states I can find better for less.

In days of yore, I used to spend quite a bit of money on fine dining (what a regret that is now). Bix, Silks, Papillon, (in SanFran/BA) and many other places whose names slip my old mind.

There came a point when I just stopped enjoying these types of places - the value just wasn't there. The food was great, the service was great but I just became uncomfortable paying the price regardless. The opportunity cost became more recognizable since this was considerable expense for me, not negligible disposable income.

The most memorable aspects now were not dining per se but the company kept while dining.

I don't go out much now - balancing out in my life I guess. But when I do, I'm satisfied with just good food, friendly service at a reasonable price. Michelin stars mean nothing to me now.

Michelin stars in the U.S. are, I suspect, BS.

They definitely are, in Miami.

Heck, even a James Beard award in Miami is BS - admittedly, they were getting a lot of pressure for not awarding any in Miami - but there are no good restaurants in Miami.

(There are some good family Cuban places, etc - but all of the “fine dining” is mediocre, at best.)

Ingredient quality has collapsed. The demographic collapse has hit ag quite hard.

The "sweet spot" when looking at Michelin Star quality dinning is to look up the Bib Gourmand places in your area.

Recently tried a Shanghai noodle place in a shopping mall in Irvine CA that was located directly under the local Dai Tai Fung. Dinner for two was about $40, food was great, service was above average, and there wasn't the 1+ hour wait like there was upstairs.

Just tried another that just got their Bib that was local to me. Pho place, almost a hole in the wall. Food was unbelievably fresh and everything was well prepared. It was a bit loud and service was a bit chaotic, but it was only a bit more than $40 and we ordered several different dishes to try out how well they did them

I think we must separate the experience from the food, then apply a cost evaluation.

Experience can be bad, good, or great. Similarly, food can be bad, good, or great. That's nine potential outcomes.

Experience x Food = Result
Bad x Bad = Bad Squared
Bad x Good = Bad
Bad x Great = Bad
Good x Bad = Bad
Good x Good = As expected
Good x Great = Better'n average (Croc Dundee?)
Great x Bad = Bad
Great x Good = Better'n average
Great x Great = Memorable

55% of these outcomes are displeasing. If cost is proportional to the result, I think we all rest easy. It's the exception to the result that bothers us.

An anniversary dinner at Grill 225 in Charleston SC was expensive at $450. I'd rank the event as "great x good = better than average."

Similarly, a recent lunch at Ford's Garage was $50. 11% of the cost of Grill 225. But, it was a "bad x good = bad" lunch. I have complained more about the $50 cost than I have lauded the Grill 225 experience. I won't go back to Ford's Garage. I may go back to 225.

I've ate at couple high end restaurants in the northern Virginia area, Capital Grill being one, and while I enjoyed the steak I didn't feel it was any better than the steak I get at Texas Roadhouse just three times as expensive.

Just because it's a high end expensive restaurant doesn't mean the food is going to be great. As long as the food is good I'm content but wouldn't go back if I didn't feel the food was worth the price I paid.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

quote:

Originally posted by Orguss:
Having said all that, I did once go to a 1-star Michelin rated Japanese restaurant in San Francisco and left seriously pissed off, wondering how it had achieved that award.

Damn, where was this?

It was more than a decade ago and I never paid attention to the name of the restaurant. We were strolling through the J-town shopping mall and were near the Benihana when I noticed the Michelin Star rating posted next to the door, so I suggested we try it. I do remember thinking we should have just gone to Benihana.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
In days of yore, I used to spend quite a bit of money on fine dining (what a regret that is now). Bix, Silks, Papillon, (in SanFran/BA) ...

"Fine dining" for me consisted of places like House of Prime Rib, Thanh Long, Ton Kiang, or Yank Sing. Not extremely high dollar, but could still be expensive for my friends and me. But the food at these places was always consistently good quality and an enjoyable atmosphere.

To me, those are everyday restaurants (although I only go to Yank Sing for dimsum on weekends). Fine dining, to me, implies more exceptional and occasional restaurants - special occasions. I liked House of PR - I liked the way they carved to preference tableside. And also offered seconds if you finished the plate. It was good - haven't been there in 20+ years though.

Not quite fine dining, but I really miss South Park Cafe, Boulevard, One Market, Embarko, Etrusca, and others. Cheap enough to be more frequent yet better than average food and service.

I don't think, over 40 years, anything in J-town has qualified for fine dining, let alone a star. At least in my opinion. Looking about 20-40 years ago, San Jose J-town had some decent restaurants, better than SF J-town. Neither had anything I would consider fine dining. Although SF J-town did have a decent izakaya at one point (in one of the hotels - can't remember the name). A nice night would be the chinese restaurant (San Wong's?) w/ dry fried entrees. Then upstairs to Kanzaki's for drinks and live music.

I would absolutely expect a meal that cost $250 for a couple without drinks to be exceptional food. I honestly can't think of any times I've spent that much and left disappointed.

But sometimes it's just the dish you get. Generally, at a place like that, I am looking for the things on the menu that have a lot of flavor inherent so I'm usually staying away from fish or chicken dishes and going with interesting dishes or red meat: Game, duck, steak, pork chops.

For that money I usually want decadent, not dainty fru-fru food.

Here in Atlanta where the food scene is good but not world-class like NY, SF, LV, etc,. I can usually have a very good meal for two with a few drinks for under $200. Probably only 5 or 6 restaurants in town that I'd expect to pay more than that, excluding wine by the bottle.

quote:

Originally posted by Orguss:

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
In days of yore, I used to spend quite a bit of money on fine dining (what a regret that is now). Bix, Silks, Papillon, (in SanFran/BA) ...

"Fine dining" for me consisted of places like House of Prime Rib, Thanh Long, Ton Kiang, or Yank Sing. Not extremely high dollar, but could still be expensive for my friends and me. But the food at these places was always consistently good quality and an enjoyable atmosphere.

None of those places would be considered fine-dining, especially when compared to older places like Stars, Aquarello, Farralon, Rubicon, Fluer de Leis or Gary Danko. Those restaurants you did list however are the old reliables, the institutions that help underpin an area's culinary chops, not chasing elegance or, ratings but, a beacon to reliably good and maintaining a standard. Sadly, the owner of House of Prime Rib recently passed away, his sons have been running it for awhile so, I think they're in good hands. Reservations are like 6-8 months out