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| hello darkness my old friend  |
I would be happy if they made it so I could always write off all of my medical expenses rather than always just falling short of the 10% AGI target for the medical deductions. | |||
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| Too old to run, too mean to quit! |
The first thing that needs to happen is collecting taxes from the 47% who don't pay any (and if fact are paid to not pay any). But, you see, everybody would be paying taxes because it is a sales tax on what people buy. Assuming the fairtax. Only way to avoid that is to go to the black market, buy from individuals without any paperwork. Of course, it would be illegal. Of the 2 plans under discussion (flat tax, Fair tax) the fair tax would seem to be the most efficient. When one considers how much we who pay taxes actually pay, it would be a nice reduction for us. Consider all the other associated taxes imposed by gubbermint! We already have what amounts to a national sales tax on some products. How about those "excise" taxes on various products? IIRC, the feds get a tax on every tire sold in the country. And how about all those federal taxes on phone service, ad nauseum? Elk There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour) "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson "America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville FBHO!!! The Idaho Elk Hunter | |||
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| Muzzle flash aficionado  |
Yep. And prior to the 16th Amendment, it was pretty much just that. FDR saw that it was impossible to raise the "per citizen" tax enough to fund his planned New Deal (because the poor would not be able to pay more) and he pushed for an Income Tax. flashguy Texan by choice, not accident of birth | |||
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| Big Stack |
Unless people start buying and selling under the counter to beat it. And, of course, they won't care that it's illegal.
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Member |
Taxes are not about raising revenue. They are about behavior control. Once you realize this, it all makes sense. Thus the metric system did not really catch on in the States, unless you count the increasing popularity of the nine-millimeter bullet. - Dave Barry "Never go through life saying 'I should have'..." - quote from the 9/11 Boatlift Story (thanks, sdy for posting it) | |||
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Member |
That is what Beardsley Ruml said back in 1946. His speech titled "Taxes for Revenue are Obsolete" is an important read. http://www.constitution.org/ta...mt/ruml_obsolete.pdf ____________________________ "It is easier to fool someone than to convince them they have been fooled." Unknown observer of human behavior. | |||
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Member |
Wouldn't a federal sales tax open the door for even more federal manipulation of the market? The higher the cost of the good or service the more money made by government. I understand that it's all supposed to level out or equalize, however, I see constant market manipulation on the part of federal government to keep their revenues in front of the leading edge of inflation. So, constant and high inflation will become the norm unless federal government goes on a diet. | |||
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Member |
Could government behave as you've suggested. Sure. Would government behave the way you've suggested? Doubtful. When every breathing human in the country is subject to paying a national sales tax on what they consume, it becomes incredibly difficult for government to hide tax increases (like they do in the current tax code). And since everyone would be subject to any such tax hike, how popular would a politician be around election time who advocated for raising that national sales tax? The key is to simplify taxation, make everyone subject to it, and make any attempts to raise the tax rate very public where even the most uninitiated are aware of it. But as has been noted, that would mean government would lose an immense amount of the power they currently wield to control the people (i.e. punishing some and playing Santa Claus to others), and they aren't going to let go of that without a major war. ----------------------------- Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter | |||
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| Member |
Why is it so doubtful? If the government can give subsidies for farms and dairies why can't they take them away? Will protective tariffs go away or get more protective. I really don't think the American people are as tuned in to the ramifications of government actions as we think especially if the ramifications are twice removed from government action. | |||
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| Member |
You ever seen 'any' elected official in Washington willing to go out there and offer to raise taxes on everyone? They'll play Robin Hood and hammer the rich while supposedly giving to the poor. But no one, and I do mean no one, is going to stand on a soap box in front of a microphone and profess their support for raising a national sales tax that 'everyone' would be impacted by, even if it were necessary. That would cost them votes and fundraising dollars across the entire political spectrum. They 'could'. But why won't they? Simple, Because if they did, they would lose votes and fundraising dollars, and find themselves fighting for re-election (and likely losing). Totally different subject, but I personally do not view that as an issue. Those government actions would not be "twice removed" if a national sales tax were put in place. Simply put, 'if' government raises the rate of the tax, everyone would pay more, so 'everyone' across the entire economic spectrum would feel it. They need not be totally plugged into politics to grasp that reality when the amount of money in their pockets is less due specifically to politicians choosing to take more it. And think about how the media would report on this given their liberal bent. Given what I've read on the topic, I truly believe this to be the most viable method of taxing, and resolves many of the problems with the current system. ----------------------------- Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter | |||
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| Too old to run, too mean to quit! |
As I think I have already said, the fairtax would be the most productive, easily understood, most controllable by the people. Will there be cheaters? Probably, but if law enforcement actively pursues the cheaters, and the price of getting caught is high enough the number of cheaters would likely be minor. I have no idea where to start looking to find out all the federal taxes we are paying, Any suggestions are welcome, as it would be very enlightening, I am sure. Elk There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour) "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson "America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville FBHO!!! The Idaho Elk Hunter | |||
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| Too old to run, too mean to quit! |
Found the following info for 2015: ................................. http://www.cbpp.org/research/p...x-revenues-come-from Sources of federal revenue, 2015 .................................... Federal excise taxes and revenues Sources of federal revenue, 2015 Excise, estate & other taxes (9%) Income tax (47%) Payroll tax (33%) Corporate income tax (11%) .................................... Apr 15, 2016 ... As they rush to file their taxes by April 18, Americans are rightfully frustrated with the complexity of the 74608-page-long federal tax code. Edited to add: Number of IRS employees, about 89,500 as of 2014. And this number does not, apparently, include contract workers. How much money could be saved if this organization no longer existed? Or at least reduced to the size absolutely necessary to handle those post card tax returns from the flat tax, or minuscule tax returns from sales taxes? Elk There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour) "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson "America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville FBHO!!! The Idaho Elk Hunter | |||
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| Member |
Bigdeal, you seem to be missing my point while actually proving it. I do agree with what you say about raising a tax rate, the peasants notice and indeed complain. I'm talking about market manipulation by government to raise the price of goods and services so that the amount of tax collected for the federal government is more. Not raising the tax rate. At this time our governments, all the way down to the city level, exercise forms of taxation or subsidies that effect what you pay for goods and services. Most people don't have a clue that these taxes and subsidies are in place. Milk is a good example, if you take away the federal subsidy for milk the price will shoot up, viola, the federal government has just created more revenue without raising a tax rate. Lactose intolerant, vegans and free market advocates will cheer, ice cream lovers and people with kids will cry. That example is just an illustration of the base level, think about the taxes at just the federal level that can be raised to increase the price of a product that we as consumers don't see but the manufacturer, transportation and retail aspects have to pass on to us. Fuel for transportation, trucking taxes,environmental "fees", importation taxes are just a few that come to mind. A federal sales tax would be something to look at, I agree. My point is that you have to remove the Federal Government's ability to influence the price of the goods and services taxed or exempt the goods and services that are influenced by the Federal Government from taxation. | |||
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| Too old to run, too mean to quit! |
Seems to me that gubbermint futzing around with the prices of goods and services would be political suicide. If some cabal of politicraps decides to manipulate a price increase on milk, or eggs, or bacon (God forbid  said increase would hit every buyer of those goods, and it would be political suicide for the ones trying it. How would they keep their efforts secret? Elk There has never been an occasion where a people gave up their weapons in the interest of peace that didn't end in their massacre. (Louis L'Amour) "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical. " -Thomas Jefferson "America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville FBHO!!! The Idaho Elk Hunter | |||
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| I believe in the principle of Due Process  |
The Income Tax has been around longer than FDR. The 16th Amendment was ratified in 1913. Luckily, I have enough willpower to control the driving ambition that rages within me. When you had the votes, we did things your way. Now, we have the votes and you will be doing things our way. This lesson in political reality from Lyndon B. Johnson "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." - Justice Janice Rogers Brown | |||
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| Member |
No, I get your point, and it is a valid topic to discuss. However, whether government were to increase the tax rate, or somehow manipulate the price of the goods taxed, the impact on the consumer paying the tax would be the same. Their pocketbook would take a hit, they'd feel it, and they'd scream. The more uneducated the consumer, the more they look to government to blame for all their problems. IMO the more government opted to play around with the variables to try and pump up their coffers, the more elected officials would lose their offices. ----------------------------- Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter | |||
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| Member |
Bigdeal, I live in Washington, one of the few states that does not have a state income tax. All state revenue is supposedly derived from sales tax. So, I'm actually "living the dream". I'll admit that I am woefully ignorant of Florida and it's revenue generating structure. But we have our own issues here. Aside from what we call "backdoor" taxes, use your imagination, we have a colorful array of fees, special assessments and a growing number of levies that are added to our payables column every year. Some of this is added to our property tax bill. The fees are everywhere, what makes them special is that they only effect you if you are In that particular market. Eventually, everyone is in the market. O.K. Fair enough. When I buy tires I should expect to pay a disposal fee. Oil change, haz-mat fee etc. As a General Contractor I was hit with a "Potential Hazardous Waste Producer" fee that was unilaterally imposed by the Department of Ecology. I bring this up not because of the pre-crime aspect of it but because this fee affected my customers. When the state's Contractors raised a stink about it the general public's reaction was "So what, you guys make enough money, besides I'm not in the market for your services." What the state counts on is the epidemic of class envy here. Admittedly, I'm on the West side of the state where stupidity and solipsism runs rampant. You know better than I if this exists in Florida. If you think people are aware of what taxes and fees affect who, come to Washington, my county is paying taxes for a monorail for another county. It feels so good! I can see how deep the tax tree roots can go but, I follow it. Government plays on societal division and greed and uses it against us. Fees and assessments will creep in. "Oops, that war was unforeseen, we need a special assessment to pay for it, because war wasn't included in the bill." People don't care if another class of people have to pay more for what they want, and it's always another class until it's your turn and when it's your turn all the other classes are grateful it's you and not them, "sucks to be you" is very common in this state. Government just keeps moving from one class to the next. You might be the exception Bigdeal, but I've noticed here that there is a general apathy toward digging a little deeper when there is a price increase. You keep expressing the pressure that politicians feel from their electorate. Do you really think politicians feel any pain after they lose an office? They do their party's bidding and for that the party takes care of them if the public disagrees and votes them out. Do you think these folks get these high paying jobs as "consultants" because they're bright? Aside from the influence their former title may wield they are simply getting rewarded for "taking one for the team" and given that they get back into rotation soon enough. We can go back and forth on this until we're the only two left in this thread. I'd rather not do that. As a final and repeated statement with an addendum, I agree that this could work, however, drastic changes in governance and scope of government influence will have to be put in place. We agree bigdeal. I'm looking at a glass half empty due to my experience, you're looking at it half full for your own reasons. | |||
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| Member |
I think in the end we're going to have to settle on something that is the best compromise. My suggestion of a national sales tax, or the FairTax isn't perfect. But in the end, the taxing methodology isn't really the root problem we face. It's government's insatiable need to expand and control the population. This is true at every level of government. I just believe that ditching 75k pages of current IRS tax code in favor of a simple, single, national tax rate would be a start. The single tax approach would also lessen the ability of government to use taxes to divide the populace. Of course government would attempt other means of accomplishing this goal (like the subsidies you mentioned). There is no perfect solution or magic bullet. We just need to move away from the colossus that's been created at the IRS which actually works against, rather than for, "We the people". ----------------------------- Guns are awesome because they shoot solid lead freedom. Every man should have several guns. And several dogs, because a man with a cat is a woman. Kurt Schlichter | |||
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| Member |
Completely agree with you bigdeal. | |||
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posting without pants |
Against a sales tax. What percentage would they need? It is already between 7 and 10 percent here with state, county, and local sales tax. 20 or 25 percent sales tax seems absurd. Just simplify the existing codes. Simplify the deductions so it doesn't take 6 years of college to do a basic return. Get rid of all the special bullshit. Make everyone have some skin in the game so they can't profit by trying to tax "the other guys to death" Strive to live your life so when you wake up in the morning and your feet hit the floor, the devil says "Oh crap, he's up." | |||
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