At the point he applied power, he was already too slow to effectively go around and may well have had a power on stall as full power tend to result in a pitch up as he already buried the yoke in his crotch, and would have done better to have maintained directional control on the ground and rode it out off the runway. It would have likely slowed with only having to dal with any obstructions or bad spots of terrain, but preferred over what he experienced.

Second, it's not a car, you cannot turn the yoke and avoid anything, his "mind" reverted to instinct and he was doing very little to control anything once he applied full power, he was going along until the ride ended with Sir Isaac in control.

Fortunate he didn't kill himself or anyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
At the point he applied power, he was already too slow to effectively go around and may well have had a power on stall as full power tend to result in a pitch up as he already buried the yoke in his crotch, and would have done better to have maintained directional control on the ground and rode it out off the runway. It would have likely slowed with only having to dal with any obstructions or bad spots of terrain, but preferred over what he experienced.

Second, it's not a car, you cannot turn the yoke and avoid anything, his "mind" reverted to instinct and he was doing very little to control anything once he applied full power, he was going along until the ride ended with Sir Isaac in control.

Fortunate he didn't kill himself or anyone else.

Agreed on all points. There was a whole lotta over-controlling going on, which is common with new student pilots, especially ones not confident in their ability to control the aircraft. An initial problem occurs, and in attempting to deal with it quickly the new pilot panics and over-controls and/or over-corrects leading to a cascading series of failures, complicated by the new pilot reverting back to the reflexive action of trying to 'drive' the plane.

There was an interesting sound made the moment the wheels made contact with the runway and I wonder if he landed with one or both brakes applied, or applied max braking/ uneven braking on contact, possibly causing the initial drift to the left. Or, a blown main might do something similar.

It appears that once he throttled up for a go-around that once he departed the runway his focus diverted to directional control and he switched to using both hands to control the yoke, forgetting the throttle was advanced and carrying extra speed to the point of impact.

Glad no one was hurt, and I hope his instructor or another experienced pilot sits him down away from others, talks through the mistakes made, settles him down and reassures him, and that he gets back to flying.

Yep, looks like he was trying to steer with the yoke instead of the pedals. It's been years since I was taking lessons but at that time the only private aircraft that I knew of that nose wheel ground steered via yoke was the Beech Bonanza. All others brake/rudder steered. I may be wrong but that's what I remember. Took ground school and passed FAA exam but never soloed or licensed. Life got in the way with Uncle Sam duties.

quote:

Originally posted by SFCUSARET:

only private aircraft that I knew of that nose wheel ground steered via yoke was the Beech Bonanza.

I owned a Bonanza for more than thirty years. Well over half of my 8,000 flight hours was in the Bonanza series, with a good chunk of that as instructor. I have flown most models, from the original 1947 Model 35 to the last v-tail produced, the V-35B, and many of the conventional tail 33s and 36s. All Bonanza and derivatives that I am aware of, such as Debonair, TravelAir, Baron, and T-34, have nose wheel steering that is coupled to the rudder pedals. I have never heard of any member of the Bonanza family in which nose wheel steering is controlled by the yoke.

Are you possibly thinking of the Ercoupe / Aircoupe? That is the only airplane that I can think of that was manufactured with nose wheel steering controlled by the yoke; in fact, that airplane had no rudder pedals. I worked with a guy who was wheelchair bound; this was the only airplane he could fly.

I know he’s just a beginner but some people just don’t have the natural instincts for some things.
This guy is real lucky and did a number of things wrong. Considering he was already on the ground and only had to do a limited amount of things right, makes this seem remarkable. Remarkable because once airborne things are so much more complex, three dimensional, compared to ground operations.
In some respects he’s lucky, because he survived this and now has a chance to reevaluate his choice of hobbies. For his sake, I hope he shows better judgment now than he did in the video.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:

quote:

Originally posted by SFCUSARET:

only private aircraft that I knew of that nose wheel ground steered via yoke was the Beech Bonanza.

I owned a Bonanza for more than thirty years. Well over half of my 8,000 flight hours was in the Bonanza series, with a good chunk of that as instructor. I have flown most models, from the original 1947 Model 35 to the last v-tail produced, the V-35B, and many of the conventional tail 33s and 36s. All Bonanza and derivatives that I am aware of, such as Debonair, TravelAir, Baron, and T-34, have nose wheel steering that is coupled to the rudder pedals. I have never heard of any member of the Bonanza family in which nose wheel steering is controlled by the yoke.

Are you possibly thinking of the Ercoupe / Aircoupe? That is the only airplane that I can think of that was manufactured with nose wheel steering controlled by the yoke; in fact, that airplane had no rudder pedals. I worked with a guy who was wheelchair bound; this was the only airplane he could fly.

Thanks for the correction V-Tail. Yep I definitely confused the two aircraft,both having twin tails and a whole lot of years that have gone by. My father had an American Yankee and those craft didn't have nosewheel steering at all.

Since we know he wasn't hurt I will say that was a fun video to watch because it was comically bad. On every level. He probably shouldn't pursue his private pilot license. If he does, I hope he continues filming his adventures. lol

Think maybe he was turned loose a little too soon.

I'm currently training a 40 something year old male student. He is having a hard time with the steering with the feet part. We talk about it constantly, but he reverts back to trying to steer with the yoke when things start going south. Muscle memory is a hard thing to change. He's gonna have to really work hard before he ever has any chance of solo flight.

I would tend to agree that some folks are not cut out for flying, despite their best efforts and good training.

quote:

Originally posted by pedropcola:
Since we know he wasn't hurt I will say that was a fun video to watch because it was comically bad. On every level. He probably shouldn't pursue his private pilot license. If he does, I hope he continues filming his adventures. lol

quote:

Originally posted by nosticks:
Think maybe he was turned loose a little too soon.

I think the truth is one of these, but unlikely both. I would assume his instructor would be doing a lot of soul searching right now.

Reading an article on this incident, it's a little tough to judge, but it appears the aircraft attitude is a little too flat and he likely made a 3 point landing. With what appears to be rapid deceleration coupled with the odd noise I mentioned previously, I think he landed flat and maybe a little hot, and was aggressively braking, which led to the initial drift to the left, even though he appeared to have plenty of runway remaining to bleed off speed.

But, after re-watching the video (@ 30 more times ), ultimately, I'm convinced that the root cause of this accident is the pilot's green pants. Never wear green pants while flying.

This crash occurred back in 2020, and this is an article that gives a little more info about the airport and flight school.

A few points of info from the article:

- the airport once had a control tower, even spending $2m to update it, but the tower had been closed so this was an uncontrolled airport at the time of the crash.

- the area around the airport had grown and the airport was under pressure to close and sell the land to allow for more growth.

- the video is from a camera that the flight school mounted in the plane. I didn't know flight schools were using cameras in their planes, but I can see how it might be used as both a safety precaution and as a training tool.

- the flight school had another 172 go down around the same timeframe as this crash, with both the instructor and student surviving the incident.

- the point of impact at the hangar was @
150 meters (@ 500') from the runway.

- the plane apparently had to traverse over two ditches and so he likely got it partially airborne for part of the ride.


[Note: additional photos, Twitter Tweets, and some amusing anecdotes in the Comments section found at the linked article.]

===============

When Not To Go Around

11 Sep 20

We spend a lot of time talking about bad landings where the pilot(s) should have broken off the approach and gone around. It’s common to continue to try to land at all costs even when the simpler and more sensible option would be to go around and try again. I thought it was worth looking at this crash which shows the opposite: sometimes attempting to go around will just make things worse.

On the 24th of August 2020, a student pilot at Toronto Buttonville Municipal Airport crashed into a hangar at the end of his first solo at a small Canadian airport known as Buttonville.

Buttonville Municipal Airport is located 29 kilometres (18 miles) north of Toronto. It started as a privately owned grass strip in 1953 and became an airport in 1962. Since then the local area has become built up, leading to strict noise-control procedures and threats of redevelopment, as the land value is now worth much more than the airport. Plans to replace the airport into a 170-acre property with condominiums, retain shops and office space have been deferred until at least after 2023. The tower, which was replaced in 2007 for a cost of $2 million, was closed down by Nav Canada in 2019. Buttonville is now an uncontrolled airport with two asphalt runways, with 15/33 being the main runway in use.

Canadian Flyers runs a flight training school from the airport and it was one of their students who was involved in the crash. The student pilot was approved for his first solo flight in a Cessna 172, registration C-GJQB. He took off without incident from runway 33, flying several circuits. Everything seemed fine until he came in to land, when he lost control of the aircraft.

This crash has received particular attention as the Cessna 172 had a video camera mounted in the cockpit and the footage of the landing and impact with the hangar was released on social media.

If you watch the video you can see how the problems stacked up on the student pilot. He touches down very flat on runway 33 in what looks like a three-point landing. The Cessna drifts to the left at which point he applies right rudder and applies full power, presumably thinking he should attempt a go-around. He over-corrects and the plane, gathering speed, turns to the right.

As the Cessna leaves the runway, the pilot places both hands on the yoke and pulls back, possibly in hopes of taking off or simply (sensibly) to raise the prop as the aircraft bounces, however he doesn’t reduce power. The Cessna continues out of control, bouncing across the grass and the taxiway towards the apron and the hangar. The pilot clearly panics and turns the yoke hard right in an attempt to turn away from the hangar. He crashes into the hangar and the video ends.

The runway excursion lasted for about 150 metres (500 feet) off the runway and a pilot who knows the airfield posted to PPRuNe that the plane must have been “slightly airborne” as it managed to get over two ditches in the grass, either of which should have stopped the Cessna 172.

The pilot was treated at hospital for minor injuries. The hangar sustained major damage and the aircraft was destroyed in the impact.

I have to admit, I feel a bit embarrassed for the student who clearly took the advice that you can always go around a little bit too literally.

Somewhat bizarrely, a second student accident happened at the same airport just six days later.

An instructor and a student took off in a Cessna 172M Skyhawk, registration C-GWYC, when the engine began to lose power. The instructor took control and found the engine was not responding. Low, slow and with built-up areas surrounding the airfield, he attempted to land in a nearby field; however The aircraft did not have enough momentum and struck a hill, coming to a rest in a ditch near the road.

TSB Canada are investigating both accidents. I suspect that the flight school is going to come under some pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by coloradohunter44:

I'm currently training a 40 something year old male student. He is having a hard time with the steering with the feet part. We talk about it constantly, but he reverts back to trying to steer with the yoke when things start going south.

I do not do primary training any more, I focus on just a few areas:

1. Bonanza type training, both for pilots who are transitioning into the Bonanza / Baron / Debonair / TravelAir / Baron family of airplanes, as well as recurrent proficiency training for pilots of these airplanes,
   
   
2. Instrument training, both initial and recurrent, and
   
   
3. Flight reviews (the FAA's equivalent of "continuing education").

I made an exception to the exclusion of primary training when a friend asked, "Hey, L.R. -- if I buy an airplane will you teach me to fly it?"

He chose a Grumman AA5 Cheetah. This is one of the few types of light airplanes that has a free castering nose wheel; there is no control linkage for nose wheel steering. At very slow speeds, when there is not enough airflow past the rudder to steer the airplane, differential braking is used, use the left brake to turn left, right brake to turn right. Not as easy as something with more common nose wheel steering, like for example, a C-172.

We spent the first few instruction sessions taxiing around the rows of T-hangars, turning left into one row, right into another row, etc. 30 to 40 minutes of taxiing, turning, keeping the airplane centered on the centerline stripe. That practice paid off very well. By the time that we started basic air work, my friend was able to control the Grumman on the ground very precisely.

quote:

Originally posted by coloradohunter44:
I'm currently training a 40 something year old male student. He is having a hard time with the steering with the feet part. We talk about it constantly, but he reverts back to trying to steer with the yoke when things start going south. Muscle memory is a hard thing to change. He's gonna have to really work hard before he ever has any chance of solo flight.

I would tend to agree that some folks are not cut out for flying, despite their best efforts and good training.

That reminds me of a letter I read in one of the pilot magazines about 20 years ago. An instructor was writing in for advice on how to deal with one of his students. The student had almost 100 hours logged and had gone through 3 different instructors but wasn't anywhere near ready to solo, and wasn't showing any improvement. The instructor thought the student was dangerous and was looking for advice on how to have a conversation with the student that maybe they just weren't cut out for flying.

quote:

Originally posted by Perception:

The instructor thought the student was dangerous and was looking for advice on how to have a conversation with the student that maybe they just weren't cut out for flying.

"Fishing is a nice hobby. You should try it."

The only instructing I have done was in the Navy. You either learn quick or you were out. It is an easy way to figure out if you are cut out for this line of work. Not everyone is. If you are going through multiple instructors and tons of extra time you might be a saudi prince (military instructors will get this lol) or you should take this as the universe telling you to hang up your spurs and go commercial.