As for the “inside city limits” question, 29 years of 911 calls taught me 30% of the people calling don’t even know their address. I’d venture to guess 60% or better believe they are in city limits simply because their address includes the city name.


And this….

quote:

c.: “Do you intend to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm listed on this form and any continuation sheet(s) or ammunition in furtherance of any felony or other offense punishable by imprisonment for a term of more than one year, a federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense?”

Shit, probably need to go to law school to fully understand it. Also isn’t asking/answering the question a violation of right to not self-incriminate?

You really think some who intends to commit a felony is going to say so on the form? Any such question is about as worthwhile as adding “Did you kill Jimmy Hoffa?”.


Seriously, all this garbelly gook does is make me think someone is getting a kick back on the toner used to print the forms.

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:
Seriously, all this garbelly gook does is make me think someone is getting a kick back on the toner used to print the forms.

Yeah, now the paperwork reduction act notice is on page 7 of the new 4473.

We thought question 21 I 2 caused confusion and a lot of corrections on the 4473’s. I can see that Question 10 will be right up there too. Answering with the postal “city” here, well seven townships, one city and two Zip Codes are under the municipality name and possibly parts of some other townships may be thrown int mix too.

County lines don’t matter for postal service areas, had a County resident a few days ago who’s mailing address (as shown on his drivers license) is part of a post office in a different county.

Yep, going to see a lot of corrections ahead.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: shovelhead,

Next thing you know they'll be attaching a Rubik's Cube to the forms. Can't solve it? No gun for you, peasant.

Maybe a freakin' algebra test while they're at it.

How 'bout I just staple a copy of the Constitution to their worthless Goddamned paperwork and call it a day?

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
Sounds to me like some of those are intended to confuse people and make them answer incorrectly.

Honestly I’m not 100% sure if I currently live inside the actual city limits of my address or not. My last address was inside city limits, but not the city listed on my DL. It’s easy enough to find out so now I’ll look, but I’ll bet a bunch of people answer yes to that question when they really don’t know, especially first time buyers.

Why? What do “they” get out of it?

Lying and buying on the state (at least here) and the federal level requires the transferee to “knowingly” provide materially false information to make an unlawful transaction appear to be lawful. The federal statue is worded a bit different and involves knowingly making an FFL to make a false or incorrect logbook entry.

“They” don’t get a damn thing for intentionally confusing people.

So if I never find out if I actually live inside the city limits and just answer yes to that question, I’ll never ever ever get in any trouble at all?

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:
Sounds to me like some of those are intended to confuse people and make them answer incorrectly.

Honestly I’m not 100% sure if I currently live inside the actual city limits of my address or not. My last address was inside city limits, but not the city listed on my DL. It’s easy enough to find out so now I’ll look, but I’ll bet a bunch of people answer yes to that question when they really don’t know, especially first time buyers.

Why? What do “they” get out of it?

Lying and buying on the state (at least here) and the federal level requires the transferee to “knowingly” provide materially false information to make an unlawful transaction appear to be lawful. The federal statue is worded a bit different and involves knowingly making an FFL to make a false or incorrect logbook entry.

“They” don’t get a damn thing for intentionally confusing people.

So if I never find out if I actually live inside the city limits and just answer yes to that question, I’ll never ever ever get in any trouble at all?

Are you going to knowingly lie on the form? A little common sense goes a long way despite what the internet likes to claim.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

Are you going to knowingly lie on the form? A little common sense goes a long way despite what the internet likes to claim.

Nope. I just don’t know and you seem to act as though I can now answer anything I want without fear of repercussions since I don’t know.

There is a reason it’s on there. If you have a know why it matters if I am in city limits or not I’d like to know.

ETA: to answer your original question Jones, I don’t know what they get out of it, but I don’t know why they do a lot of things that they do. You are a lot closer to them than I am, if you know I think a lot of us would be interested.

If you knowingly lie on the form, you are committing a crime. If you don’t know for sure if you live in the city limits, and you think maybe you don’t, and you find out later that the city annexed where you live, you didn’t knowingly provide materially false information.

Furthermore, the government has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you KNEW the answer provided was false.

Here's the link to the ATF Form if anyonne cares to download it and/or review it:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/d...-form-53009/download

Couple of things:

- Question 10 re: Reside in City Limits? Possible answers are Yes, No, AND Unknown. Uhhh... 'Unknown'

- Question 14 re: Sex. Possible answers are Male, Female, AND Non-Binary. Uhhh...

- Questions 21.b and 21.c have already been discussed, but WTF? Do I plan on selling the firearm (OR Ammunition) to a Criminal / Prohibited Person, so it can be used in furtherance of any felony, Federal crime of terrorism, or a drug trafficking offense? WTF, over!

Note: Section D which contains the Manufacturer, Model and S/N of the Firearm(s) to be transferred and formerly located on top of page 2 is now Section A on top of Page 1, and 'Must Be Completed By Transferor/Seller Before Transferee/Buyer Completes Section B'...
Also, was/is there an issue of disappearing page 2's, or does this make it easier to create a database of Firearm S/N's in certain states?

quote:

Originally posted by Pale Horse:

There is a reason it’s on there. If you have a know why it matters if I am in city limits or not I’d like to know.

Maybe due to the new reporting of multiple sales to the local police department?
And reporting delayed and denied forms to police department?

quote:

Originally posted by nhracecraft:

- Question 14 re: Sex. Possible answers are Male, Female, AND Non-Binary. Uhhh...

Non-B has been an option on the form for a while now.

I always, reach down, between my legs and... check. Wouldn't want to make a mistake on some form!

And in the eyes of our "progressive" government, how does one answer this question wrong? What if I selected the three different choices on three different purchases- isn't that OK now? Isn't that the way it works? I can be male or female or neither, and switch it from minute to minute can't I?

quote:

Originally posted by parabellum:
...How 'bout I just staple a copy of the Constitution to their worthless Goddamned paperwork and call it a day?

Exactly.


...

quote:

Originally posted by 911Boss:

I’d venture to guess 60% or better believe they are in city limits simply because their address includes the city name.

I don't know with 100% certainty myself. It has not come up until now. I am in kind of a "border" or "grey" area between two cities. My address is Johnson City, but I pay my utilities to the City of Elizabethton. There are many other similar situations.

2021:


Biden Set To Announce New Push To Shut Down More FFLs To Fight Violent Crime (Or Something)
https://www.thetruthaboutguns....or/daniel-zimmerman/

The truth is you can count the number of gun retailers in this country who fail to do background checks or falsify records on your fingers and toes. They’re a tiny minority of gun retailers that have no appreciable effect on the crime rate. Attacking FFLs is simply misdirection, attempting to blame the gun industry for a series of bad political decisions in Democrat-controlled cities all across the country.

The way President BidenHarris sees it, though, this is just another good opportunity to shiv the gun industry a little more and hopefully shut down a few hundred FFLs (who may have unknowingly sold a gun to a straw purchaser or whose records aren’t completely in order) in the process. That’s a win-win in their book.

President Joe Biden’s fiscal 2022 budget request included more funding for ATF to add gun dealer inspectors across the country, but these policies allow federal law enforcement to take action before Congress gets through the appropriations process, likely in late September.

We’ll have to wait and see what other anti-gun tidbits the President announces today. But you can bet they will likely 1) burden the lawful sale of firearms and civilian gun ownership, and at the same time 2) have virtually zero impact on the violent crime rate.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns....h-to-shut-down-ffls/



How many FFL's have been revoked because of innocent *clerical level* errors on 4473's during the "Biden" Administration's crackdown?

By Kerry Picket - The Washington Times - Wednesday, June 8, 2022
Federal firearms dealers are getting their licenses revoked or not renewed by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms at a much greater rate since President Biden first came to office, a GOP lawmaker said Wednesday.

“Federal Firearms Licensees are being denied renewals or their licenses are being taken away at a rate of about 500 fucking % (emphasis mine ) greater since Biden was in office [than in] previous years,” said Rep. Andrew Clyde, Georgia Republican, during a Second Amendment Caucus press conference Wednesday.

“So it is definitely obvious that the Biden administration is targeting Federal Firearms Licensees because they are the link between manufacturers and people being able to access their Second Amendment rights,” he said.


Will these ridiculously tricky changes help the "Biden" administration shut down more FFL's or solve more real crimes?

There is NO good intent in these reforms. None. Zero. Nada.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns....eclared-war-on-guns/
https://www.washingtontimes.co...gun-dealers-license/

I never understood why they even have county on the form.
If you're supplying your street address and town/city, the county is determined by a simple postal table lookup.

downloaded the form and had a customer do it yesterday for the first time. Went easy enough. now i have to supply paper and ink until they have the forms ready to ship out.

quote:

Originally posted by Chowser:
downloaded the form and had a customer do it yesterday for the first time. Went easy enough. now i have to supply paper and ink until they have the forms ready to ship out.

You have till next April 01,2023 to use the current form. Because of much of the new wording we are postponing transition till required.

We don’t have city limits here. There is only 1 city in the entire county we have what is known as an urban service district.