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| Gracie Allen is my personal savior! |
^^ The Germans only got so much out of installing puppet governments too, which led to their having to keep a number of soldiers in occupied countries and the SS having to set up branches there that were independent of the puppet governments. Putin sent troops in recently to keep the head-weasel-in-charge in charge of Belarus. Nevertheless, there are Belarussians volunteering for Ukraine, at least one senior Belarus officer has publicly denounced the war, and now the Belarus railroads are policed about as effectively as a long, slow bend in the railroads running through Los Angeles. Any flights and missiles crossing the Belarus-Ukraine border seem to be coming directly from Russian bases. IMHO Putin didn't get that much out of his investment in Belarus, and doesn't have the troops to ensure he would ever get everything he expected. | |||
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Fighting the good fight |
Good news, Ukraine! Kel-Tec is sending the Ukrainian military $200,000 worth of... Sub-2000 semiauto folding 9mm carbines?! Wait, what?  From https://www.nwahomepage.com/ne...f-rifles-to-ukraine/
Sub-2000s cost ~$800 each. $200k would be exactly 250 guns. So my next question is: Who in Odessa ordered 250 Sub-2000s last year, and why? There's probably going to be a couple hundred really confused Ukrainian militia volunteers in the near future, when they show up expecting to be issued an AK-74 and instead get handed one of these plastic space guns that fold in half.  At least they won't have to worry about ammo supply. While the Ukraine military doesn't use any 9x19mm firearms other than a small number of Glock 17s fielded by their special forces, the Russian military standard MP-443 handgun is chambered in 9x19mm, so the Ukrainians have likely captured a substantial supply of Russian 9mm ammo by now.This message has been edited. Last edited by: RogueJSK, | |||
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| Freethinker |
I was wondering what the post by airsoft guy referred to. https://sigforum.com/eve/forum...5/m/6190094844/p/128 ► 6.4/93.6 “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato | |||
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| Banned |
It's assumed they will actually travel across the world and arrive there. Arms in transit to war zones are considered contraband by at least one side who has the right in the International laws of warfare to keep them from getting there. If they can legally ship in the first place. There is a law called ITAR American enforces - it's how 3D printer programs were being prohibited from being sent around for use, or guns to terrorists. It will be interesting to see guns from America actually make it legally - because that will be a precedent gun importers here will take to court. Same with all that ammo being taken out of the American market place. What airport or harbor does it have to get to, and once there, what armored bunker impervious to air strikes will it sit in before getting shipped out on what bomb proof truck to be distributed - where? and who would want them? Not even the Israeli arms dealers loading up on all the Canadian arms and American stingers showing up - which won't last long. Those are going to wind up in Europe - 2 million combat aged men who moved into France and Germany aren't going to stick to just burning down churches. Nope, they will eventually launch jihad. It's what they do. You are watching the destabilization of Europe by AMERICA itself - second hand yet paid for by you and me. Don't think so - where did the million M16's wind up we left in Vietnam, crated and stacked in a Saigon warehouse. Central America. What comes around goes around. This is on Biden's watch. | |||
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| Fighting the good fight |
It helps if you actually read a post before you start to ramble out your response... As explained in the article I posted, the export from the US and import into Ukraine have already been approved. Were already approved in February, in fact, since the original order last year came from a client in Ukraine and they therefore had started the process months ago back in 2021. After the war broke out, it was just a matter of changing the final delivery recipient within Ukraine, which only reportedly took four days to approve that change. And as further stated in the article, the guns are reportedly being shipped to a NATO country before being taken across to Ukraine, which means either Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, or Romania since they're the only NATO countries that border Ukraine. I guess Russia could attempt to intercept them in Poland/Hungary/Slovakia/Romania, but good luck doing that without causing a major international incident. Besides, they've made zero effort to intercept any of the more potent AT/AA weaponry being shipped across from NATO countries. Russia has bigger things to worry about than intercepting - or especially vectoring a cruise missile to blow up - a single crate of gimmicky pistol caliber civilian rifles. | |||
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| Gracie Allen is my personal savior! |
Well, those things might do pretty well for guarding prisoners.
Maxim Popenker and other sources have said that the current Russian 9mms could be used with conventional 9x19mm Luger ammunition but were developed for a high-pressure, high-velocity, low weight bullet that was expected to be capable of piercing some body armor. (See, for example, https://guns.fandom.com/wiki/MP-443_Grach ) It would be interesting to see how much of which kind of 9mm the Russians have actually been using, but I wonder whether the super duper stuff would really be KelTec-friendly. They might have other sources for regular 9mm, though. Zelensky did loosen up gun ownership laws a bit in the run-up to Putin's invasion, and four major US ammo companies did make major ammo donations to Ukraine as well. | |||
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| Member |
not necessarily the top choice for main force military, but those Kel Tecs could provide service to rear echelon types. better than a sharp stick i suppose. but yes the logistics of all these various weapons systems must be getting complicated. they are getting fielded all kinds of different generations of gear across all specialties. ------------------------------ Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. | |||
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| Get my pies outta the oven!  |
I didn’t realize that Russia has basically no NCO (Noncommissioned Officers) Corps tradition like the US and all other Western militaries do. These are your tough sergeants who are supervisors and leaders of the troops directly and they enforce standards and discipline and make it all work. Russia apparently has to make their generals and colonels run things from the front, that’s crazy to me. Armies run ONLY because they have NCO’s making it all happen. Winging It’: Russia Is Getting Its Generals Killed on the Front Lines | |||
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| Fighting the good fight |
Russia has always functioned that way. Little to no initiative allowed from lower level leadership. Wait for instructions from the top and only then do exactly as you're told, or else you'll be punished.
Not so surprising. Russia has a longstanding tradition of naval infantry units, sort of akin to their Marine Corps. They're under command of a naval fleet, and led by naval officers. For example, the Black Sea Fleet's 810th Naval Infantry Brigade is currently fighting in/around Mariupol. | |||
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semi-reformed sailor |
Ummm there’s a ammunition depot in Sunny Point NC that does import/export ammo all over the world… "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.” Robert A. Heinlein “You may beat me, but you will never win.” sigmonkey-2020 “A single round of buckshot to the torso almost always results in an immediate change of behavior.” Chris Baker | |||
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| would not care to elaborate  |
Not that I would know, but it does seem surprising that Russia can't handle Ukraine in short order. | |||
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A Grateful American |
^^^ Size of the fight in the dog, and all that... "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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| Get my pies outta the oven! |
Maybe they’re not 8 feet tall and ready to take over the world like they’ve always made themselves out to be. In short, I don’t think they’re near as good as they think they are. | |||
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| A Grateful American |
A brief on the doctrine of service, conscript vs career. https://www.understandingwar.o...rve-and-mobilization "the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" ✡ Ani Yehudi אני יהודי Le'olam lo shuv לעולם לא שוב! | |||
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| Fighting the good fight |
This debacle has exposed a number of glaring deficiencies in the Russian military when it comes to the vital but "non-sexy" stuff like logistics, tactics, communication, and leadership. “Soldiers win battles, logistics wins wars.” - General John Pershing They might have a shitload of tanks and some cool futuristic missiles, but if they can't effectively supply their troops with food/fuel/ammo, and their troops can't effectively communicate with each other, and their troops can't/won't/don't employ effective tactics, and their troops lack effective leadership, then they can't expect to successfully wage a war. Russia very well may have recognized these problems, and were simply gambling on a rapid strike to steamroll Ukraine with just a couple days of fighting, to where these weaknesses wouldn't have come into play so much. Otherwise, now they're learning these lessons the hard way. Also, Russia almost certainly underestimated Ukraine's capabilities. Their experience in their initial 2014 invasion of Ukraine was very different from what they're experiencing now. Ukraine has made good use of the intervening 7+ years to significantly beef up their capabilities. Additionally, keep in mind that this is the first sizeable modern army that Russia has faced since WW2. All of their other conflicts over the more recent decades have been against semi-organized insurgent groups in places like Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Syria, or against the much weaker militaries of tiny countries like Georgia and Moldova. | |||
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| would not care to elaborate |
If half of what is reported is true, doesn't paint a very good picture. And Putin didn't see this coming? More surprising still. | |||
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| Thank you Very little  |
Actually they retail for about half that, $400 normally, before the current unpleasantness in gun prices they were less. At that volume it's probably a dealer so figure $300 each cost so it's around 500 - 600 guns depending on the CPU... They use glock mags, so finding magazines will be easier, run 9mm, fold up and hide them in your backpack, actually a pretty good carbine. | |||
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| Get my pies outta the oven! |
Sounds like the Germans are afraid of pissing off the Russians too much here: Germany has delivered only 500 of the 2,700 Strela anti-aircraft missiles it promised to Ukraine in early March to help shore up its defenses against the Russian invasion, Welt am Sonntag revealed. Maybe German SF member Banshee can give his take? | |||
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| Big Stack |
I think it's more than that. The Russian army is looking much more hollow than was previously thought. Mostly undertrained, unmotivated conscripts, poor leadership, poor logistics, bad tactics. And, yes, the Ukrainians are fighting like their existence depends on winning. The Russians? Very much NOT so.
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| Lawyers, Guns and Money  |
Larry C. Johnson: "The Ukrainian Army Has Been Defeated. What's Left Is Mop-Up" https://www.lewrockwell.com/20...hats-left-is-mop-up/ "Some things are apparent. Where government moves in, community retreats, civil society disintegrates and our ability to control our own destiny atrophies. The result is: families under siege; war in the streets; unapologetic expropriation of property; the precipitous decline of the rule of law; the rapid rise of corruption; the loss of civility and the triumph of deceit. The result is a debased, debauched culture which finds moral depravity entertaining and virtue contemptible." -- Justice Janice Rogers Brown "The United States government is the largest criminal enterprise on earth." -rduckwor | |||
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