quote:

Originally posted by PASig:
Apparently the top Soviet political and military echelons were absolutely shocked at how FAST and how HARD we hit the Iraqis and they realized they were not up to par and would have lost had this happened in Europe.

I had retired from the Army a few years before and had spent my entire career during the Cold War hearing about the capabilities of the Red Army’s equipment in particular. Iraq was supposed to have some of the best Soviet armament, and when Gulf War I started I had serious concerns about what our forces would face in the coming fight. I can’t say anything about how shocked the Soviets were, but to this day I vividly recall how amazed I was by how easily our side slaughtered them. Wars involve more than arms and materiel, but we were supposed to be facing some of the best of that and the results left me astonished.

One reason might be that there some Russians in their military that don't support this war.

Interesting clip. I know standard anti ambush tactics are to assault into it. No one did. A couple of vehicles leave the road and no response to the attack.
Was the decision made that the anti tank missile shot was just a lone dude and not worthy of response?

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Interesting clip. I know standard anti ambush tactics are to assault into it. No one did.

It appears that a couple of tanks fired their main guns toward the origin of the weapon launch, but other than (I believe) one guy heading toward cover on the left side of the screen, everyone else from the tank that was hit and the infantry vehicle ran to the other side of the road.

Of course, if they knew that the ambush origin site was about to be lit up with tank fire, that would have been a good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by YooperSigs:
Was the decision made that the anti tank missile shot was just a lone dude and not worthy of response?

No one knows. Like you said we are always taught to press into the ambush. If you are already in the kill zone running makes no difference right?

I don't fault these troops for exiting stage right. I DO fault their lack of air cover. Good gravy. Moving a column that big, along a well defined MSR with no air cover?

Amateur hour.

After they knew what was going on they seemed to herringbone (sort of) and the tanks in the rear got a few rounds off.

Still no reason to be without air.

Armor is effective but it needs help.

One of the things that I have noticed is that the Russians have been operating (and losing) a lot of T80BVM tanks.

This is basically an upgraded T80 (from a T72) with a turbine engine. They normally use these in cold weather environments. (Turbine starts a little easier.) Not sure what they are doing down south.

The have such a smorgasbord of armor. Old, New, cold weather or warm weather.

Supply and maintenance must be a bitch.

In WWII the US supplied parts for a half a dozen different Shermans all over Europe. No way the Russians can do that.

And one of the reasons you are seeing Russian tanks getting blown the EFF up? Weight. They have no armor. Look at al the ERA that they have. Garbage. The bags on the skirts? Designed so the crew can add sand. A generic Abrams has about 20 TONS on a commie tank. Now this won’t protect from a top down Javelin, but it does protect from a lot of other things.

People are saying that due to the advent of man portable anti-armor missiles the day of the tank is over.

Thats like saying due to advent of man portable anti-aircraft rockets the day of the aircraft is over.

All about the tactics, the infantry support, and the air cover.

Stalin once said that "quantity had a quality all it's own".

That is likely true in war time when you're cranking out equipment knowing full well a percent of it will be destroyed beyond repair. Perhaps a large percent.

In peace time, none of that will be destroyed or perhaps a fraction, so you have to have the logistics and parts to keep them all running.

A massive fleet of tanks requires a massive support structure behind it for maintenance, parts, supplies (lube, oil, fuel) etc,. I'll guess the Russian system can't do that.

quote:

A massive fleet of tanks requires a massive support structure behind it for maintenance, parts, supplies (lube, oil, fuel) etc,. I'll guess the Russian system can't do that.

Bingo.

I have literally seen "Parts fall from the sky".

When the west goes to war the parts stock pile opens up.

You don't even have to troubleshoot a problem. Supply will literally shove you enough parts to fix anything.

Turret electrical issue? Replace every component in the turret.

It's unreal. The war stock NATO has is unrivaled.

Old, new, no matter.

Russia ain't got that.

Especially outside their borders.

I make fun of the supply geeks, but dam.

If I want it, they got it.

When you look at the standard MPR (DPR, ESR, whatever) you see certain parts that are available.

When the shit hits the fan you get a whole 'other basket to pull from.

The sky's open's up and parts are there.

Once I had an onboard fire extinguisher for a tank get emptied. We needed a new one to be able to operate. Ordered one 02 (deadlined).

None in country, but within a week one was on the way.

6 days. It took 6 days. For CONUS to AFG.

That's why we will win.

I'm a mech at heart but dam, log is there.

There's a lot of speculation on why Russia hasn't flatten Ukraine yet, the speculation runs rampant. Another issue is that a lot of the Ukraine war reports are highly unreliable. Highly.

There is also an assumption that we "know" Russia's intent and prosecution of the war. Nope, nobody here does. Nobody. We are not privy to the goals intended or how to achieve them. Saying "Russia could do a lot better job killing people" implies it's their goal - yet, they aren't.

How does that fit with what they are trying to accomplish? So far, they uncovered the 30 + bio labs Obama started up, and took that evidence to the UN. They are negotiating concession with Zelensky - NATO expanded from 12 to 30 countries since its start up, Russia is now just it's own nation, not the Soviet Union. For the last 20 years it can be honestly asked, who's the real aggressor? And once Obama overthrew the legitimate government of Ukraine and installed his own, have the people prospered? Not in the northern regions where continuous war, shelling and fighting has been going on.

Why do we think Russia needs to flatten Kiev at all? We live in an asymetric war era, is it really necessary to hold long lines, control hundreds of miles of MSR, etc? Did Sherman do that in Georgia? The Russians are well aware of how that war was conducted and it was highly successful.

I'm hearing a lot of 80's battle concepts getting thrown around and assumptions made the Russians are failing at it. I think the Russians aren't using that framework of battle, aren't trying to carpet bomb Ukraine into the stone age, aren't trying to kill civilians. And I certainly do NOT believe any of the Ukraine published war reports. Consider those are the only ones repeated by OUR media - after the last six years why trust them now?

With the US found working on pathogens in labs there, this isn't the conventional front line warfare we think it is. It's one with political goals, not military, and so far, Russia has the upper hand. Migs or open aggression on NATO or the US's part is exactly that - a declaration of war.

What part of Ukraine do we need to die for when we and NATO have been the aggressors for decades? Americans never enter a new war with a working idea of the tactics it takes to win - we have to suffer and learn from the mistake of trying to conduct it like the last war. How will that make Ukraine safer bombing their country, assaulting thru their towns, or even trying to ship equipment there? A convoy enroute is a target of war by the laws of warfare.

Lets not jump in where we didn't belong in the first place. We have an invasion on our border right now - 1 million a year, mostly combat aged males, walking across an unprotected border. This problem is much bigger than some profitable excursion for defense contractors thousands of miles away that is diverting our attention right here.

quote:

Originally posted by mbinky:

6 days. It took 6 days. For CONUS to AFG.

That's why we will win.

I'm a mech at heart but dam, log is there.

Didn't Napoleon say, "amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics?". .

Along the same lines as the recent above postings, I recall the infamous saying at the start of WW1 about how the Imperial Russian Army was so strong and numerous, that they could flatten the Imperial German Army by just throwing their hats at them. How’d that turn out again?


https://townhall.com/columnist...an-military-n2604478

What If Everyone Is Wrong About The Russian Military? by Derek Hunter

As a kid, the only thing close to as tough as the United States military was those communist bastards they were protecting us from. We were tougher, of course, but since we were the good guys we didn’t even consider invading them. Should they invade us, which we knew they wanted to do, we’d be ready to kick some commie ass! At least, that’s what we told ourselves, mostly to avoid thinking about the complete, total and world-wide nuclear annulation. Times have changed, and so has the Russian military…or has it?

We always assumed they were as strong militarily as we were, but mostly because of parades and their size. Everyone has seen the footage of battalions marching through Red Square, huge intercontinental ballistic missiles rolling along with them in a sea of soldiers and tanks. They sure projected strength and readiness. But maybe they weren’t ready?

All we really had to go on was the Soviet Union’s word, their propaganda videos, and the fact that they could push around so small countries. But maybe they were a super-power based solely on their huge nuclear arsenal?

We never really saw the Soviets take on another organized military, their power was largely acquired through propping up dictators and intimidation – they were very good at disappearing the disloyal and beating up the weak.

We were told they were strong, minus the nukes, mostly because they were big, and that assumption continues to this day. But their actions in Ukraine are not that of a world-class military, not by a long-shot. It’s more like a drunken douchebag indiscriminately launching rockets, quite possibly because they lack anything with precision. We can drop a missile down a chimney with the accuracy of Santa Claus, but what if the Russians couldn’t even hit a brick in a brick factory?

Remember what we were told about the Republican Guard in Iraq? They were the “best of the best.” Pick your Gulf War, when they started the story was about how we’d have no real issues with the regular Iraqi troops, but when we encountered the Republican Guard things would get hairy. They never did. The Republican Guard was as insignificant as the regular army. Both times the people in charge were completely wrong about what we were up against, the RG folded like a cheap tent. Could history be repeating itself with Russia?

They have a lot of nuclear weapons, so we have to respect that (though maybe the geniuses who’ve been wrong about everything else were also wrong about that?), but as far as their army goes, they seem pretty terrible. It’s tough to say if they’re targeting civilians or simply launching wildly because they can’t target anything – Putin being a monster doesn’t help with this. But logistically, they are absolutely a joke.

A competent military doesn’t get a 40 mile long convey, on which most of their alleged strategy depends, stuck in the mud and out of gas for 3 weeks.

What I think might be at play is pretty simple: the military leadership in Russia is just as corrupt as the political leadership, because why wouldn’t it be? When the people giving you orders are dipping their hands into the pie, why wouldn’t you when whatever is left gets to you? That leads to corners being cut, to laziness.

That’s all well and good, and you can get away with that for a very long time. But every once in a while, a propaganda video is needed or a parade must occur. Well, it’s pretty easy to get people to march in a line, especially when you get to pick the people best at it and can hide the rest. While those bad-ass, ripped soldiers in those Russian military videos clearly exist, there doesn’t seem to be that many of them. Take a look at any of the pictures of captured Russian soldiers in Ukraine. Do they look ripped or do they look pregnant and ready to retire?

What if our government has been wrong about the Russian military all along like they were about the Iraqis? And if they were wrong about that, could they also be wrong about China?

Having a billion and a half people and a willingness to sacrifice as many as needed to achieve your objective is as much of a military strength at it is evil, but what if that’s all the Chinese military has going for it too?

It’s hard to tell, and I don’t want to find out the only way we can every really know, but it’s something worth pondering. Maybe we’re the only military in the world that projects its actual strength? Our politicians don’t allow its use – we failed in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan because the politicians put such stupid restrictions and rules of engagement on our troops that might as well have blindfolded them – but we have the capabilities, we don’t just parade and edit videos well.

Mao famously called the United States a “paper tiger” – appearing strong but nothing really to be afraid of. What if that applies to our enemies? I’m not sure how that changes how we act as a nation, but I can’t imagine it not having some impact.

quote:

Originally posted by 2BobTanner:
What If Everyone Is Wrong About The Russian Military? by Derek Hunter

I don’t know enough to be certain myself, and really hope I never know enough to be certain, but it’s definitely something to think about.

quote:

Originally posted by Tirod:
And once Obama overthrew the legitimate government of Ukraine and installed his own, have the people prospered? Not in the northern regions where continuous war, shelling and fighting has been going on.

That would be the eastern regions: Donbass (Donetsk, Luhansk), not the north. The north is where Kyiv is (more-or-less).

quote:

Originally posted by Tirod:
Why do we think Russia needs to flatten Kiev at all? We live in an asymetric war era, is it really necessary to hold long lines, control hundreds of miles of MSR, etc?

Have you been following this conflict at all? You answered your first question with the assertion immediately following. As for controlling hundreds of miles of MSR: It's either that or get your supply lines cut off for the same reason.

quote:

Originally posted by Tirod:
Did Sherman do that in Georgia? The Russians are well aware of how that war was conducted and it was highly successful.

Yeah, well, Sherman didn't have fuel-thirsty mechanized forces to feed and the Confederates didn't have fire-and-forget MANPADs, either.

quote:

Originally posted by Tirod:
I'm hearing a lot of 80's battle concepts getting thrown around and assumptions made the Russians are failing at it. I think the Russians aren't using that framework of battle, ...

You think. Again: Have you even been following events over there? At all? The Russians are clearly employing typical Russian military doctrine: Surround and pummel. Just ask whomever's left in Mariupol.

quote:

Originally posted by Tirod:
Lets not jump in where we didn't belong in the first place.

I agree with questioning the West's wisdom in getting involved in Ukraine's politics, but that still doesn't justify Putin's actions.

quote:

Originally posted by Tirod:
....

How does that fit with what they are trying to accomplish? So far, they uncovered the 30 + bio labs Obama started up, and took that evidence to the UN. ....

Please provide links.

quote:

6 days. It took 6 days. For CONUS to AFG.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
vowels please. I know what CONUS is.

quote:

Originally posted by ZSMICHAEL:

quote:

6 days. It took 6 days. For CONUS to AFG.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
vowels please. I know what CONUS is.

Afghanistan

Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Skins2881:

quote:

Originally posted by Tirod:
....

How does that fit with what they are trying to accomplish? So far, they uncovered the 30 + bio labs Obama started up, and took that evidence to the UN. ....

Please provide links.

Biolabs do not equate with Bio Weapons Labs.

Think your preggers? Pee in a cup and it goes to a bio lab. Start a new job, pee in a cup and it goes to a bio lab. Think you migh got the 'beetus? Pee in a cup, get some blood drawn and it goes to a bio lab. And research of desiises, caused by bacterium and viruses, guess where they study how all that works and how to deal with it.

Oh, yeah, down at the biolab.

Every 1st world country has them, and a few 2nd and even third world places have them.

Guess what. It is more likely the fat cats are getting fatter in the whole Big Pharma and Health care money making scheme bu skirting oversight and regulations having these bio labs in various 2nd world countries. Look at the tremendious wealth and power exercised over the past few years with this Covid crap game we all got dragged into.

That is most likely what all this bruhaha is about with these labs.

But it is not as salacious and enticing for it to be a mundane thing, no, Putin cares so much about the world being threatened by the FrankenUkanianStein monster, that he will risk WWIII and knookleer weapons, ala Oprah style, "You get nuked!, You get nuked! Everybody get's Nuked!!!"

Yeah, that makes about as much sense as Trump and the Miltary Generals gonna marsh back in to Washington, round up all the evil politicians, bag and drag them to GITMO and hang them after the Tribunals, then he will continue to be the Real President.

It's the same hogwash poured from the same container.

While, we have more credible proof of China messing around with things they not ought, and crickets.

The Israelis belive Iran is working towards nuclear weapons and not simply for medical and power needs, they don't wring their hands and "suggest" evil plots, they infiltrate and sieze the real evidence and then present it for the entire world and invite experts from all over the word to come and inpect for themselves.

Russia? They made excessive claims as to what they think is/was going on, and provide no proof, nor invited anyone one for inspections.

(Oh, wait, they are not done yet, and besides, "someone" had the Ukrainian people destroy all the evidence, we even hear and saw a lady with a pen say that, well imply that, well maybe grassy knoll, something something aliens might be involved with the Pope or....)

Look, I ain't getting any younger. If Russian Jesus is gonna save the world, he needs to get off his horse, put his shirt on and get to saving it, cus, I got things to do.

quote:

Biolabs do not equate with Bio Weapons Labs.

Nope, false, everyone of them is producing an anthrax bubonic plague hybrid to take out Russia and reunite the USSR with Kiev as the new capital.

They will pay for it at a war crimes tribunal in front of the UN.

quote:

Originally posted by sigmonkey:
Biolabs do not equate with Bio Weapons Labs.

Someone has said that the secret US bioweapons program was moved to Ukraine to hide it from being discovered someplace else. As our esteemed Vice President has pointed out so clearly, Ukraine borders a bigger country, and not only a bigger country, but one that’s run by an autocrat who has already seized part of the smaller country. The autocrat has also made no secret of his belief that all of the smaller country belongs to the bigger country, or at least should be controlled by the bigger country, and that he was willing to use force to achieve that. That was demonstrated for all to see about two weeks ago.

And yet, where did those oh-so-clever folks in the US who were smart enough to hide their secret bioweapons program in a foreign country so it wouldn’t be discovered decide to put it? Well, yes, you guessed it: In the small country bordering the big country that had long been threatening to invade and occupy the small country and when they did that would not only discover the secret bioweapons program, but be able to appropriate everything in the labs for their own use.

What’s more, as has been discussed at length, the small country is generally corrupt and therefore there are in general people who would have figured out a way to make a tidy sum or two from the knowledge that the most powerful country was sponsoring a program that would be universally condemned if discovered. But wait, there’s more: Some of the small country’s leadership is not only corrupt, but also sympathetic to the idea of being controlled by the big next door neighbor. So we put our bioweapons program not only in a corrupt in general country, but in one some of whose leaders would be more than pleased to compromise it to the big country.

Gotcha.

Edited: No, don’t ’splain the other thing. Not here.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,

quote:

What if our government has been wrong about the Russian military all along like they were about the Iraqis? And if they were wrong about that, could they also be wrong about China?

- What if the Chinese army is no more capable than the Russian army, even if the Chinese army has the numbers that the Russian army used to have?
- If the Russian army sucks relative to expectations, exactly how much do their nuclear forces suck? The Russian Rocketeers were always the Red Army elite, but their other elites have not impressed.
- If the Russians are as incompetent as they seem to be, what totally random (as far as we can tell) things will they do that we cannot predict?

It's all too easy to either be more fearful or more confident than we should be when we suddenly realize how much we don't actually know.