quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
No different than free speech. It’s a fundamental human right.

With that argument we cannot have any borders. Working for a living is a fundamental human right, ergo any human who wants to come into our country and work should be able to.

One would logically have to first be in a place lawfully before being able to exercise a right. Would the burglar who breaks into my home have a legitimate claim to self defense when I confront him with my firearm?

As someone else mentioned, voting for one's government is a basic human right. Doesn't that mean then that every human within our borders, legally or not, has the right to vote here?

Voting is a management decision. It doesn’t make sense as a fundamental right.

Neither does work, really, or the right to be in whatever country you wish.

The right to pursue happiness, as you see fit probably is an American right.

The burglar argument is the same as trying to defend trying to incite a crowd to panic.

The illegals have a right to defend themselves the same as they have a right to free speech, and freedom of religion.

And, I’m not sure that we should stop “Americans born elsewhere” from coming to the US - I have no tolerance for the flood of Communists and Socialists, but I doubt we would ever be overwhelmed by a flood of people who actually want to be Americans. (I get that economic immigrants are a problem - we are still fighting that legacy.)

^^^NONE of the Illegal Alien Invaders streaming across our southern border are 'Americans Born Elsewhere', or even want to be Americans...They just want to live in America!

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
Voting is a management decision. It doesn’t make sense as a fundamental right.

So having a say in how one is governed is not a fundamental right? Isn't government merely the extension of one's own agency, whereby the citizenry delegate certain powers to representatives who can, in theory, more effectively protect and preserve the natural rights of those citizens?

Having agency is indeed a fundamental human right.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:Neither does work, really, or the right to be in whatever country you wish.

So a person has no fundamental right to pursue wages? No right to apply oneself as they desire in order to provide for themselves and their family?

If a fundamental right trumps legal status in this country, any human who crosses the border could claim they have the right to work, and indeed the right to stay in order to work.

My assertion is that person must first lawfully be where they are before they can claim their rights.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
The right to pursue happiness, as you see fit probably is an American right.

Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are foundational principles of our nation but based in the concept of natural rights preceding, or outside of, the creation of any particular government. The right may not be honored in some other countries, yet it remains a basic human right.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
The burglar argument is the same as trying to defend trying to incite a crowd to panic.

The illegals have a right to defend themselves the same as they have a right to free speech, and freedom of religion.

The Castle Doctrine provides me the assumption that an home intruder intends me bodily harm, and I can use deadly force. This is only because that intruder has no right to be inside my home. Outside of my home, e.g. at the mall, I cannot use deadly force on a person who simply enters the building without presenting an imminent threat.

Likewise, an illegal alien has no right to be inside our borders, and thus does not have access to the same rights as citizens. Citizens have a right to vote, to keep and bear arms, to petition the government, to speak freely.

quote:

Originally posted by Aglifter:
And, I’m not sure that we should stop “Americans born elsewhere” from coming to the US - I have no tolerance for the flood of Communists and Socialists, but I doubt we would ever be overwhelmed by a flood of people who actually want to be Americans. (I get that economic immigrants are a problem - we are still fighting that legacy.)

Afaik, virtually everyone supports immigration. The only way to ensure immigrants desire to be Americans is to carefully vet every one of them before we let them in. Even then, we cannot absorb every person on this planet who desires to become an American.