quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
CA DOJ LEO are known to have staked-out parking lots of retailers and gun shows in neighboring Reno, Carson City, Las Vegas, Yuma, etc... taking note of vehicles with CA plates and observing the purchases those owners make. Arrests and prosecutions have been made, usually the most careless and obvious are the ones getting caught.

Wow. That's... um... staggering.

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Originally posted by corsair:

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Originally posted by vthoky:

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Originally posted by honestlou:

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Originally posted by Ogie:
Exactly! Why can't someone drive to a neighboring state and buy a bunch of ammo and bring it back to California?

They could if they are willing to take the chance of getting caught at the border crossing.

Are there checkpoints? (... asked the guy who's never driven near California.)

CA DOJ LEO are known to have staked-out parking lots of retailers and gun shows in neighboring Reno, Carson City, Las Vegas, Yuma, etc... taking note of vehicles with CA plates and observing the purchases those owners make. Arrests and prosecutions have been made, usually the most careless and obvious are the ones getting caught.

I think it would be time to have lunch and spend some time enjoying the scenery in your neighboring state before heading back to California.

By the way, what right would California law enforcement have in stopping you and searching your vehicle when you crossed the line back into California?

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Originally posted by Ogie:

By the way, what right would California law enforcement have in stopping you and searching your vehicle when you crossed the line back into California?

I am not saying I support this, but there would probably be probable cause if they observed you coming out of a gun show with a box and driving back into California. Probable cause doesn't mean they have to have proof that you are committing a crime.

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Originally posted by jhe888:
I am not saying I support this, but there would probably be probable cause if they observed you coming out of a gun show with a box and driving back into California. Probable cause doesn't mean they have to have proof that you are committing a crime.

Just so we're clear, they're "observing" outside their jurisdiction, no?

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Originally posted by jhe888:


I am not saying I support this, but there would probably be probable cause if they observed you coming out of a gun show with a box and driving back into California. Probable cause doesn't mean they have to have proof that you are committing a crime.

I am no lawyer, but wouldn’t that be awfully thin for PC? What if you walked IN with the box? If they weren’t inside watching to see WHAT you bought and put in the box, how does simply having a box meet the bar of PC?

Even if it did, PC alone doesn’t give them the right to search does it? Wouldn’t they need to take their PC and get a warrant to actually search?


Then there is the issue of essentially conducting LE activities out of jurisdiction and in another state.


So glad I got out of CA so many years ago, won’t willingly set foot in that state ever again.

I've purchased ammo in Utah while visiting family and gone back to CA - never a problem nor was I asked at the Ag Inspection at the Truckee border check.

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Originally posted by stoic-one:

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Originally posted by jhe888:
I am not saying I support this, but there would probably be probable cause if they observed you coming out of a gun show with a box and driving back into California. Probable cause doesn't mean they have to have proof that you are committing a crime.

Just so we're clear, they're "observing" outside their jurisdiction, no?

I'm sure IL and NY DOJ do the same in neighboring states. Not saying right or, wrong but, we shouldn't be surprised that LE attempting to operate outside their home areas, even if the activity is passive.

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Originally posted by 911Boss:

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Originally posted by jhe888:


I am not saying I support this, but there would probably be probable cause if they observed you coming out of a gun show with a box and driving back into California. Probable cause doesn't mean they have to have proof that you are committing a crime.

I am no lawyer, but wouldn’t that be awfully thin for PC? What if you walked IN with the box? If they weren’t inside watching to see WHAT you bought and put in the box, how does simply having a box meet the bar of PC?

Even if it did, PC alone doesn’t give them the right to search does it? Wouldn’t they need to take their PC and get a warrant to actually search?


Then there is the issue of essentially conducting LE activities out of jurisdiction and in another state.


So glad I got out of CA so many years ago, won’t willingly set foot in that state ever again.

Certainly thin and highly questionable, hence any good lawyer should be able to make a case should you be hit with such a charge. Keep in mind, most of those being caught, are career criminals, with a litany of other charges and history. There's also the issue of how much bandwidth is there for CA DOJ to pursue such cases, there's only so many investigators and there's bigger, more certain cases to be had.

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:

CA DOJ LEO are known to have staked-out parking lots of retailers and gun shows in neighboring Reno, Carson City, Las Vegas, Yuma, etc... taking note of vehicles with CA plates and observing the purchases those owners make. Arrests and prosecutions have been made, usually the most careless and obvious are the ones getting caught.

Clearly, that's way more important than dealing with the actual criminal activity in California, like big time organized shoplifting.

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Originally posted by jhe888:

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Originally posted by Ogie:

By the way, what right would California law enforcement have in stopping you and searching your vehicle when you crossed the line back into California?

I am not saying I support this, but there would probably be probable cause if they observed you coming out of a gun show with a box and driving back into California. Probable cause doesn't mean they have to have proof that you are committing a crime.

But wait....If you put a box of ammo in the trunk of your car and you were stopped in California and asked to open your trunk, couldn't you just tell them to pound sand? Tell them to get a warrant. That sounds like a 4th Amendment violation.

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Originally posted by vthoky:

quote:

Originally posted by corsair:
CA DOJ LEO are known to have staked-out parking lots of retailers and gun shows in neighboring Reno, Carson City, Las Vegas, Yuma, etc... taking note of vehicles with CA plates and observing the purchases those owners make. Arrests and prosecutions have been made, usually the most careless and obvious are the ones getting caught.

Wow. That's... um... staggering.

Yeah, there has been stories, incidences like this in the old days of Iggy Chinn and Allison Merrilees at the CA DOJ, but they have been out of there for years. People still go out of state to buy standard cap mags, and now cases of ammo. I visited a buddy of mine in Grants Pass a couple of weeks ago, and our mutual friend visits him from the Bay Area several time a year, and has made it a habit of buying mags and recently, cases of ammo.

My lone Iggy Chinn story is during a LE charity shooting match, during a break in the action, he was found to be walking down the firing line writing down the serial numbers of competitors rifles. He was confronted by a bunch of the shooters (all cops mind you), his notepad pages torn-out and kicked-out, told to never show his face around. He lateraled to SFPD and retired from there.

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Originally posted by 911Boss:
Even if it did, PC alone doesn’t give them the right to search does it? Wouldn’t they need to take their PC and get a warrant to actually search?

PC does give them grounds for a legal search for a crime in the process of being committed.

You're thinking of PC to search a non-moving scene

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Then there is the issue of essentially conducting LE activities out of jurisdiction and in another state.

They aren't making arrest outside their jurisdiction or enforcing any CA laws outside of CA...there is no violation of CA law unless the property if brought into CA in violation of the law

"They aren't making arrest outside their jurisdiction or enforcing any CA laws outside of CA...there is no violation of CA law unless the property if brought into CA in violation of the law"

That is true as far as it goes but it still doesn't give them the right to randomly stop and search vehicles coming from out of state.

The power to tax is the power to ban.
Why didn't they just make it 50% for a start?

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But wait....If you put a box of ammo in the trunk of your car and you were stopped in California and asked to open your trunk, couldn't you just tell them to pound sand? Tell them to get a warrant. That sounds like a 4th Amendment violation.

Obie, cars have different rules than houses do. There are hundreds of cases setting case law regarding searching cars. There is much less required to get into a car due to its ability to abscond.

/drift

One thing’s for sure: if I go out of state for a class like the SpecOps class in AZ in November, I’ll be sure NOT to take ammo but buy it there.
In the meantime I just ordered another 2 cases of 9 mm ball and 500 rounds of Speer Gold Dots.

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Originally posted by MikeinNC:

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But wait....If you put a box of ammo in the trunk of your car and you were stopped in California and asked to open your trunk, couldn't you just tell them to pound sand? Tell them to get a warrant. That sounds like a 4th Amendment violation.

Obie, cars have different rules than houses do. There are hundreds of cases setting case law regarding searching cars. There is much less required to get into a car due to its ability to abscond.

/drift

Nevertheless, I doubt that you can just stop cars and search them because the owner might have purchased ammunition out of state.

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Originally posted by Ogie:
Nevertheless, I doubt that you can just stop cars and search them because the owner might have purchased ammunition out of state.

That isn't what were talking about.

It isn't "might have" it is "observed to have" which is what gives officers the PC to stop and search. It depends on what they observed.

The last big "bust" I remember...from years ago...was CA licensed vehicles at a Reno NV gun show making purchases and bringing them back over the state line. You'd have to be an idiot to not think they'd be watching gun shows or gun shops on the border between states

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Originally posted by 9mmepiphany:

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Originally posted by Ogie:
Nevertheless, I doubt that you can just stop cars and search them because the owner might have purchased ammunition out of state.

That isn't what were talking about.



The last big "bust" I remember...from years ago...was CA licensed vehicles at a Reno NV gun show making purchases and bringing them back over the state line. You'd have to be an idiot to not think they'd be watching gun shows or gun shops on the border between states

This isn't what we are talking about either. We are talking about draconian laws that hurt the average person, not criminals. A person going across a state line to purchase ammo for themselves shouldn't have to run the risk of being arrested. Obviously discretion should be used when making a legal purchase across state lines.

The simple answer to the problem is having a buddy drive up separately and not go to the gun show. Leave the show with a packed trunk and then head deeper into Nevada for a meet up and transfer (preferably in a parking garage or some other place hard to observe), then drive the “hot” car back to Cali with empty boxes… or possibly filled with packing peanuts. Tell the nazis to fuck off with their questions.