Three teens who will never commit armed robbery again.

September 17, 2019, 07:29 PM

H&K-Guy

quote:
Originally posted by cparktd:
quote:
Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
Seriously, there is no joy to be gained by their deaths.
H&K-Guy

Maybe, maybe not, but there could be for what would have otherwise been future victims.

How many commit armed robbery successfully at 15 or 16 and then hang it up and fly right. The thugs were likely doomed to a life of crime, with no telling how many victims.

As for the shooter having to live with it for the rest of his life... the operative phrase here is "rest of his life", as in, he ain't the dead one.

Hmmm. It's hard to find fault with that. Interesting thoughts.

H&K-Guy

September 17, 2019, 07:30 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ59:
What if the homeowner and family were engaged in criminal enterprise? Say, a drug house.

Would it be a justified shooting? Just wondering.

My guess is the intended victims aren’t necessarily squeaky clean, but from the news thus far the police are leaning toward a good shoot.[QUOTE]

I have no idea who the homeowners are but even people who are not upstanding citizens have the right to protect their home and family no matter the time of day.

At my age it is highly unlikely I would be awake at 4:00AM. When I was younger? The clock meant nothing to me

September 17, 2019, 08:30 PM

ersatzknarf

quote:
Originally posted by nukeandpave:

Prolly got adjoining drawers at the morgue.

September 17, 2019, 09:22 PM

bozman

Not sure if it has been mentioned/discussed yet, but did this armed citizen pull off a real-life "El Presidente" drill?

September 17, 2019, 10:05 PM

P220 Smudge

quote:
Originally posted by Skins2881:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
So what. The homeowner was up at 4:00AM. Since when do adults have curfews.

I'm up at 4AM when I have to be at work by 6AM. Plus his mom was out there with him, so I don't think he was breaking curfew.

I’m often up at 4AM. Have been for years. I used to wonder how people did it when I was younger, then I had a family. My wife has been waking up a little after 4AM to be at work at 6AM for just shy of a decade now, and there’s no sleeping through much of anything for me anymore. In fact, I often wake her up when she somehow manages to sleep through her alarm or not set it. The days I can sleep heavily for 6-8 hours are gone.

In short, it’s all too easy for me to imagine being a few decades older and being awake, and with a rifle in reach at that hour. Alone, or family around. If I’m out of bed, I’m armed. Good on this home owner for being in the same mindset, it saved his life.

September 18, 2019, 07:10 AM

jljones

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ59:
What if the homeowner and family were engaged in criminal enterprise? Say, a drug house.

Would it be a justified shooting? Just wondering.

My guess is the intended victims aren’t necessarily squeaky clean, but from the news thus far the police are leaning toward a good shoot.[QUOTE]

I have no idea who the homeowners are but even people who are not upstanding citizens have the right to protect their home and family no matter the time of day.

At my age it is highly unlikely I would be awake at 4:00AM. When I was younger? The clock meant nothing to me

There is a chance that this was misdemeanor murder. But, it doesn’t matter from the self defense standpoint. Unless there is evidence that pops up that shows the homeowner is complacent with inviting the two yutes, they were definitely at fault.

September 18, 2019, 07:12 AM

gearhounds

quote:
two yutes

Actually, it was a hat trick. ‘Tree utes

September 18, 2019, 07:45 AM

HayesGreener

quote:
Originally posted by bozman:
Not sure if it has been mentioned/discussed yet, but did this armed citizen pull off a real-life "El Presidente" drill?

Did anybody get the split times?

September 18, 2019, 08:00 AM

sig sailor

I understand what H&K-Guy is saying. I know that if I had to kill someone, it is something that I would have to deal with for the rest of my life. However, what is most important is that I would be alive to deal with it and so would my family. I do not want to have to kill anyone, but if my life and the life of my family was at risk I would do my best to do just that. Every morning when I put on my carry gun I say; I pray I don't need this today.
Rod

September 18, 2019, 08:07 AM

erj_pilot

quote:
Originally posted by sig sailor:
...I would be alive to deal with it and so would my family......

...along with your neighbors and countless HUNDREDS these no-good dirt bags would rob, harm, and even potentially murder in future years for the rest of THEIR lives if they were still drawing air.

AMF...

September 18, 2019, 08:45 AM

sigfreund

Many people these days have been conditioned to believe that they should be devastated by the need to defend themselves against deadly attacks. I even read something recently that suggested it was practically an obligation for soldiers to suffer from PTSD because of their combat experiences. It hasn’t always been that way, though, and isn’t something that even now everyone believes.

I’m not criticizing anyone who does suffer lasting psychological damage from such experiences, but there are ways to help prevent or at least mitigate its possible effects. I have vivid recollections of every time I had to draw a gun in a self-defense situation. The reason, however, was not because I feel guilty about having done so, but because of the highly stressful, Adrenalin-soaked circumstances of the events. In that sense I will have to “deal” with the events for as long as I live. But they don’t make me feel bad because I was justified every time I did it. I sometimes feel pangs about how I could have done things better, but not for the basic response.

The same should be true of a deadly force encounter. Knowing that we did the right thing when circumstances forced us into it won’t allow us to forget the incident, but it can make it far less likely that it will haunt us with feelings of shame or guilt.

Almost the first thing I tell my students when presenting a class on the use of deadly force is that they absolutely, positively must work through any questions and doubts they may have that deadly force can be justified to defend ourselves if necessary. If, for example, they believe that “Thou shalt not kill” refers to anything other than not killing another member of one’s tribe (as it was obviously originally intended to mean when handed down from the mount), then they need to resolve that conflict in their own mind or not carry a gun for self-defense.

Failing to resolve such questions or doubts about the morality of self-defense before an incident occurs can not only cause us to hesitate, sometimes fatally, but is far more likely to result in lifelong stress and guilt. And part of resolving all that is the recognition and acceptance that there’s nothing wrong with not feeling guilty if it happens.
“No, you’re not a monster for having had to kill someone to protect you and your family, and you’re also not a monster for not feeling like a monster. It’s also okay to take satisfaction, if not pride, in the fact that by having the right tools and skills you were able to defend them and yourself in the most effective way.”

September 18, 2019, 09:02 AM

H&K-Guy

quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Many people these days have been conditioned to believe that they should be devastated by the need to defend themselves against deadly attacks. I even read something recently that suggested it was practically an obligation for soldiers to suffer from PTSD because of their combat experiences. It hasn’t always been that way, though, and isn’t something that even now everyone believes.

I’m not criticizing anyone who does suffer lasting psychological damage from such experiences, but there are ways to help prevent or at least mitigate its possible effects. I have vivid recollections of every time I had to draw a gun in a self-defense situation. The reason, however, was not because I feel guilty about having done so, but because of the highly stressful, Adrenalin-soaked circumstances of the events. In that sense I will have to “deal” with the events for as long as I live. But they don’t make me feel bad because I was justified every time I did it. I sometimes feel pangs about how I could have done things better, but not for the basic response.

The same should be true of a deadly force encounter. Knowing that we did the right thing when circumstances forced us into it won’t allow us to forget the incident, but it can make it far less likely that it will haunt us with feelings of shame or guilt.

Almost the first thing I tell my students when presenting a class on the use of deadly force is that they absolutely, positively must work through any questions and doubts they may have that deadly force can be justified to defend ourselves if necessary. If, for example, they believe that “Thou shalt not kill” refers to anything other than not killing another member of one’s tribe (as it was obviously originally intended to mean when handed down from the mount), then they need to resolve that conflict in their own mind or not carry a gun for self-defense.

Failing to resolve such questions or doubts about the morality of self-defense before an incident occurs can not only cause us to hesitate, sometimes fatally, but is far more likely to result in lifelong stress and guilt. And part of resolving all that is the recognition and acceptance that there’s nothing wrong with not feeling guilty if it happens.
“No, you’re not a monster for having had to kill someone to protect you and your family, and you’re also not a monster for not feeling like a monster. It’s also okay to take satisfaction, if not pride, in the fact that by having the right tools and skills you were able to defend them and yourself in the most effective way.”

Interesting. I read that whole thing three times. Lot's of insight there.

I only wish I had the benefit of such training. I'm just a guy, in a small home, with a few guns left in his collection. I doubt I will ever be trained to think and believe what you offer.

I guess most of us won't. So I guess I'm just not conditioned for such sad, tragic events. Like I said earlier, you guys are probably just made of tougher stuff than me.

Thank you for sharing you perspective. Unlike those that talk, and talk, and talk, and don't say anything, you've got some valid points.

I especially like the notion of training yourself and your mind beforehand to resolve doubts. I'm just not there yet, but professionals that deal in deadly force probably are.

H&K-Guy

September 18, 2019, 09:19 AM

parabellum

Some people around here are aware of my philosophy on living things. I will not- either intentionally or through careless disregard- harm any living thing, nor do I condone the killing of any living thing whose death does not serve a purpose, such as the harvesting of game animals for the purpose of food, or the slaughter of cattle, pigs, chickens or the like, which were bred specifically for the purpose of being food.
An example I cite is that when I walk across my driveway, I look at the ground ahead of my steps and I avoid stepping on anything crawling around.
The other night, I spent close to 10 minutes trapping a moth which had gotten into my house. I managed to trap it and then brought it outside and let it go. Perhaps it was immediately was eaten by a bird, or it was at the end of its short life span. If so, this is the nature of things- the food chain, life and death and so forth. I can't do anything about that I don't want to do anything about that. All I know is that I don't feel right when I snuff out a life for no valid reason or, say, let a moth die out of its environment when I could do something about it. I'm certain this will make some of you laugh, and I do not care.

There are exceptions, of course. Mosquitoes and roaches can carry disease and they are on the hit list.

And while I do understand what H&K-Guy is saying, all bets are off if you attempt to rob me or harm my family. If you storm into my home, if you threaten my life, you have then forfeited your own life in your gamble, and at that point, tough shit. These three "kids" came looking for trouble, and they were armed and fired shots at the homeowner. I don't have a single speck of sympathy for them. They asked for it and they got it.

September 18, 2019, 09:56 AM

sigfreund

quote:
Originally posted by H&K-Guy:
I'm just not there yet, but professionals that deal in deadly force probably are.

Unfortunately that is not true of all armed professionals. In some ways it’s gotten much better over the many years that I’ve studied such things, but there are still many accounts of LEOs in particular who fall apart psychologically and even physically because they were forced to kill someone in defense of themselves or others. Studies have revealed that those who didn’t resolve their doubts and questions before the incident are more likely to suffer those effects. On the other hand, cultural changes and the common rejection of acceptance of the right of self-defense have in some cases made the problem worse.

I believe a primary reason why many armed professionals still find themselves in that situation is because of the lack of formal guidance and education about the subject of the justifications for self-defense. As I said, I make it a point to specifically discuss that issue with the people I train because I know that most of them have never so much as even thought about the subject. How much similar training and guidance do others provide? I simply don’t know, but I do know that whatever it is, it doesn’t reach everyone.

I will also encourage everyone who might ever be required to use force to defend against a deadly attack to not limit their own thinking. There is nothing fundamentally different about the psyches of the corrections officer who is issued a gun to carry when transporting prisoners from one jail to another and the “nonprofessional” homeowner, parent, or spouse who realizes that the world can be a dangerous place and has a gun available to use if needed. Both such individuals should think about and understand several things:
1. The possibility exists that I could be subject to a deadly assault.
2. The right of self-defense is, as one commentator put it in 1803, “The first law of nature.” Every living thing has the right to defend itself against attack, and most will, including some by fighting back.
3. To effectively defend myself and others I must have the necessary knowledge, skills, and tools.
4. When acting in self-defense, I must be prepared to take whatever action is necessary to stop the attack effectively.
5. Regardless of the outcome of my defensive actions, I must always remember that the attacker was responsible for initiating the attack and he and he alone bears the responsibility for whatever happened to him as a result of my right to defend myself against him.
6. I am a rational human being and I know and accept that all of the above are true, and I will keep those facts in mind whenever I think about what happened during an incident.

September 18, 2019, 10:02 AM

Skins2881

quote:
Originally posted by sig sailor:
I understand what H&K-Guy is saying. I know that if I had to kill someone, it is something that I would have to deal with for the rest of my life. However, what is most important is that I would be alive to deal with it and so would my family. I do not want to have to kill anyone, but if my life and the life of my family was at risk I would do my best to do just that. Every morning when I put on my carry gun I say; I pray I don't need this today.
Rod

As do I. I would be troubled by having to take someone's life, but in the end you have to realize it's you or them. I pick me or my wife. No one wakes up wanting to take a life. Hell i hope to never even have to draw my gun in self defense, let alone use it.

I have zero problems though laughing at bad guys getting what they deserve.

September 18, 2019, 10:15 AM

HayesGreener

Recently in our PI business we have been interviewing a number of convicts who are serving life sentences. Repeat offenders, armed robbery, aggravated assault, aggravated battery, attempted murder, carjacking, burglary, narcotics trafficking, felony level domestic violence, felons in possession of firearms, and on and on. When looking at their conviction and incarceration records just about all of them started early and were incarcerated numerous times before they got the life sentence, starting when they were juveniles. It seems that they were pre-programmed by their culture and life experiences to plunge ahead on that pathway from childhood. When they talk to me they smile and speak to me in a civil and respectful manner but make no mistake, these are human predators. The more you are around them, the clearer that becomes. If the circumstances as presented are true, these boys were predators in the making and the die was cast. Society is better off without them.

September 18, 2019, 10:18 AM

recoatlift

No sane person would kill just to kill. In this case, I say great shooting bagging all three!

September 18, 2019, 11:18 AM

parabellum

Yes, we'll never know how many violent crimes will not be committed because these three crooks were taken out of circulation. Does anyone think that this was their first crime, and does anyone think that it would have been their last? The world is better off withot them. Of course their mothers and the rest of their families and friends are very sad that these "kids" are gone, and of course the families and friends want to speak well of them, defend them and make excuses for them, but the fact is that three people who appeared to be on the path of being career criminals will cause no further problems, ever. Next time, they might have killed someone. They tried it this time, but they won't try it any more, and that's a very good thing.

September 18, 2019, 12:04 PM

jsbcody

Hk Guy, if you can read Dave Grossman books, "On Combat" and "On Killing".

Here is a good video to listen to:

For cops who have access to Virtual Academy, Grossman has a 3 part series "The Root of Violence". I have recommended that EVERY officer in my department be required to watch the the second part EVERY year. Yes it is that good.

September 18, 2019, 12:06 PM

c1steve

quote:
When looking at their conviction and incarceration records just about all of them started early and were incarcerated numerous times before they got the life sentence, starting when they were juveniles. It seems that they were pre-programmed by their culture and life experiences to plunge ahead on that pathway from childhood.

I wonder if some or many of those lifelong criminals would have gone down that road if they had better guidance when growing up as teenagers. No father around, just their gangster friends to feed off of, no learing about self control or self discipline. All that leads to a mind with minimal maturing. Some persons appear to be born with a criminal mind, but are those 100% of the habitual offenders, or less?