Figured I’d go ahead and start a thread so y’all can post the same worn out FUD that destroys every constructive EV thread that gets started by those interested in the technology

It seems to be the new “I hate apple products”

Yes I have a Tesla. I also have a 4 runner. Each have their purpose. Also 3 outboards 200hp+ on 2 boats so my ICE involvement is still strong


Y’all have at it with the same worn out arguments. I started a single place for everyone

I wouldn’t expect me to be visiting this thread much except to read and get some laughs

I drive 2000 miles every weekend towing a boat and my pickup bed is full of dirt bikes and jet skis. I also have a Bull Mastiff, a Saint Bernard and two Great Danes that ride along. My apartment doesn’t have any chargers and the power grid goes down if the wind gets above 5 mph.

Am I doing it right?

I hate the way EVs sound. Makes me feel like I’m living in the movie Back to the Future Part 2.

I want a Denali HD Duramax.

That said I watched a video of the Rimac doing the quarter in 8.58. That was pretty impressive.

Speaking just for myself, I have serious questions and doubts about EVs, and solar and wind generated electricity production in general, but I don't "hate" them.

What I do hate are both government mandates and government tax payer funded subsidies for them. If EV tech has been sufficiently developed and there is market demand for them, then let them stand on their merits and let the market decide without governments picking winners and losers.

I hate that government regulations both force and enable car manufacturers to justify abandoning customers who want or need the performance of gas/ diesel powered vehicles, by reducing options, support, and availability.

I hate that current EV batt tech comes with a set of downsides and forces the U.S. to be dependent on foreign nations, such as China, to supply the minerals needed for them...crying about environmental concerns and Global Warming all while quietly expending massive amounts of CO2 during the invasive mining operation followed by the massive amounts of CO2 to export them to countries such as the U.S. ... to say nothing of their significant costs in purchasing, maintaining, and their eventual disposal.

But I don't hate the fact that EVs exist or that some customers are willing to buy into the concept.

As George Thoroughgood said "that don't confront me none".

I would very much like for someone far more knowledgeable than I to actually compute the energy cost and "carbon" to operate an EV. The electricity that charges the batteries costs carbon to produce (unless it is nuclear).

There is always energy loss,, think of Newton or even entropy. It may very well cost more carbon (the grail of EVs) than petroleum products to run a vehicle. Plus the massive environmental impact of mining, producing and disposing of the batteries.

Im not smart enough to do the calculations though.

I want a Lucid Air Dream Edition.

1100 HP, 0-60 in 2.5 seconds and a Range of 450 miles.
But I need it to cost a lot less.

My beef is being forced into them under the guise and false premise of "'saving' the planet," not the cars themselves.

There is a great deal of performance and technology potential. An electric motor's torque begins as soon as it starts to turn. The starter motor in your car is powerful enough to move the entire car (but not for long). With a motor near or at each wheel, you can have on-demand AWD with no transmission or differentials. But don't tell me there are no environmental costs. The electricity to charge them has to be generated somehow, and there are more environmental as well as political problems with mining and smelting the metals needed.

I'm about 900 miles into my first 2/3 of a tank of gas in my Volvo XC90 Recharge. It's a plug in hybrid, meaning I've got both an ICE engine, as well as electric motors and batteries powerful enough to move the car alone. I'm averaging something like 75mpg (and rising as I put more miles on the electric motors) in an SUV with 400hp and 470ft lbs of torque on tap. When you drive it reasonably, the torque is instant and power delivery is smooth. It's a very good implementation of a family car power train, regardless of it's "eco friendly" status symbol.
Vehicle electrification is the future.

So, to the extent that people will bitch about range, lack of charging infrastructure, or fragility of the grid, a plug in hybrid answers a lot of those complaints.

I was surprised that the Chevrolet Volt style didn't take more hold.
Seems the best of both, an ICE engine/generator to power the electric propulsion.

quote:

Originally posted by dlc444:
I would very much like for someone far more knowledgeable than I to actually compute the energy cost and "carbon" to operate an EV. The electricity that charges the batteries costs carbon to produce (unless it is nuclear).

There is always energy loss,, think of Newton or even entropy. It may very well cost more carbon (the grail of EVs) than petroleum products to run a vehicle. Plus the massive environmental impact of mining, producing and disposing of the batteries.

Im not smart enough to do the calculations though.

I copied this response from another thread on electric power tools...

This point comes up in conversation a lot. Generally, this argument forgets things like economies of scale (one big generator plant is more efficient than lots of little ones), and that all non-renewable energy has transmission loss as well (fuel is spent trucking gasoline to a nearby gas station, and fuel is spent for you to drive there and get it). It also ignores that non-renewable fuel is used differently in a power plant than an at-home generator. Generally, a power plant uses the heat energy from the fuel to power turbines. A consumer sized generator is using internal combustion. Internal combustion captures the mechanical energy of a little bit of fuel going *poof* inside of a chamber, but the vast majority of the energy is spit out in the form of hot exhaust gas. Commercial power generation uses much more of that heat energy from the fuel burning. Even with transmission loss over lines, you are still ending up with more power from the fuel burned.

Ignore for a second all the other problems with electrified everything (i.e., ignore energy density and storage problems, ignore the need for heavy metals and rare earth elements, ignore our aging power grid, and etc and so on). IF you ignore all that other stuff, it's arguable that if you wanted to maximize the energy recovered from a unit of fossil fuel, then the most efficient way to do it would be to run that fuel through a big power plant and deliver that power over wires.

Yes, there are so many other problems with electrifying everything. BUT, the argument that the power still has to come from somewhere else is not one of them. It's simply more efficient to generate electricity elsewhere and transmit it over wires than for consumers to generate it at the point of use--otherwise, we'd all have natural gas piped to our homes and we'd all be running little generators for power.

Just for gut check: a Honda EU2200i will generate about 7kwh from a gallon of gas. 7kwh costs about $.74 cents to buy from your utility (nationwide average of 10.4 cents per kwh), but a gallon of gas costs about $3.27 on average. Electricity from the wall is more efficient and cheaper.

Additionally, some significant portion of electricity in the US comes from renewable sources. Hydro dams, wind farms, and Solar have been around for a while...

Pay back or skip all taxpayer funded incentives, rebates, and otherwise for EV and home solar and perhaps we can have a meaningful talk about the topics.

Personally, I'm sick of co-funding other people's purely superfluous toys like EVs, or helping pay your power bill - however indirectly and small that help may be.

That so-called conservatives jump at these rebates and tax funds is so wrong/gross.

I was opining with P250 last weekend that they’d make a great commuter or 2nd car, but still need one ICE vehicle in the garage for towing and road-trips.

For me, the ideal electric or hybrid would be a Mazda Miata with the power to weight ratio of a k-swapped Miata. Combine it with an ICE crew cab truck and my vehicle situation would be ideal.

30 years from now, the leftist will be wringing hands over the "tragedy of the lithium mines".

There will be news reports and documentaries about 3rd world lithium mines with child labor, slavery, massive environmental damage, contaminated groundwater, and all the other sins committed by the U.S. in our quest for "clean power" that fueled our lust for lithium. And environmentalists will protest the battery manufacturers and their "blood lithium" and demand we move to an alternative energy source that doesn't rape the earth and enslave poor people...

Just wait.


And THERE IS NO RENEWABLE ENERGY!

People who have no clue about energy are trading a rather efficient source of energy - petroluem - for minerals. You need a LOT of mined minerals in the form of metals to make an industrial sized windmill. The energy it takes to mine all that, make the steel, fabricate the parts, build the windmill, and lubricate it (100 gallons of oil that has to be changed periodically ) vs. how much power you get out of it is WAY behind petroleum based systems. Add that to all the minerals and energy that go into the battery, and it's total lifecycle costs of manufacture and disposal. Same goes for solar power, except it involves even more toxic heavy metals with even worse effects from mining and refining.

Markets are RELENTLESS about finding the most cost effective solution, across the entire supply chain. That's why cars with gasoline IC engines and Diesel locomotives KILLED steam engines in the early 20th century. No central planning, no government edicts or tax incentives. And the move to IC gasoline made the earth cleaner than steam engines burning coal. Again not because of edict, but because or total cost and efficiency.

Oh goody. I never drive anywhere, so an EV makes perfect sense for everyone else because this giant chip on my shoulder prevents me from seeing these extremists and haters might have a life different than mine. When asked questions by people trying to figure out how an EV might work in their lives, I will not answer, but instead offer a condescending nonresponse because clearly these ignorami cannot possibly comprehend how great it is to be me.

Wait, I think I did this wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty Sig:
30 years from now, the leftist will be wringing hands over the "tragedy of the lithium mines".

There will be news reports and documentaries about 3rd world lithium mines with child labor, slavery, massive environmental damage, contaminated groundwater, and all the other sins committed by the U.S. in our quest for "clean power" that fueled our lust for lithium. And environmentalists will protest the battery manufacturers and their "blood lithium" and demand we move to an alternative energy source that doesn't rape the earth and enslave poor people...

Just wait.


And THERE IS NO RENEWABLE ENERGY!

People who have no clue about energy are trading a rather efficient source of energy - petroluem - for minerals. You need a LOT of mined minerals in the form of metals to make an industrial sized windmill. The energy it takes to mine all that, make the steel, fabricate the parts, build the windmill, and lubricate it (100 gallons of oil that has to be changed periodically ) vs. how much power you get out of it is WAY behind petroleum based systems. Add that to all the minerals and energy that go into the battery, and it's total lifecycle costs of manufacture and disposal. Same goes for solar power, except it involves even more toxic heavy metals with even worse effects from mining and refining.

Markets are RELENTLESS about finding the most cost effective solution, across the entire supply chain. That's why cars with gasoline IC engines KILLED steam engines in the early 20th century. No central planning, no government edicts or tax incentives. And the move to IC gasoline made the earth cleaning that steam engines burning coal. Again not because of edict, but because or total cost and efficiency.

I’m not so sure it will take that long. It kinda depends on how quickly the transition happens I suppose.

I'll never grasp why these threads are approached in this way. I love tech of 'all' kinds and enjoy hours upon hours reading about and exploring what's being pursued. That said, I personally have no interest in owning an EV at current because I don't feel they have developed to a point where they meet my needs yet.

However, the one major beef I have with EV's is not really with the EV's and manufacturers themselves but with the retards in government pushing this crap with zero grasp of the physical requirements needed to charge/power millions of EV's daily. The current power grids cannot handle that demand and the current power generation technologies that are most efficient and most capable of meeting the charging needs (natural gas, coal, nuclear) are under attack by other retards across the country. Solar and wind tech is not going to get us anywhere close to where we need to be to power millions of EV's as well as everything else that demands power.

Bigdeal Johnson is right!

Gentlemen, am I being led to believe that government doesn't already have it's dick in everything?

Certainly we can acknowledge that oil companies, and auto manufacturers have received subsidies and tax breaks long before the first Tesla rolled out of a factory?

The government manipulates everything from the price of gas, to the price of corn for ethanol, to road taxes, luxury vehicle taxes, emissions regulations, import taxes for all the parts, all the way down to how worker labor is taxes on their income. A rebate when I buy an EV shouldn't turn you off from the tech anymore than government farm subsidies should turn you off of dairy.