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Originally posted by trapper189:

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And for a single tower controller? Gimme a fucking break.

NTSB confirms there were 5 controllers in DCA tower

From the comments-There were 5 people, but only 3 were actively controlling traffic. Two of the five were "supervisors with one being trained and one in a trainer role. (Anyone ever trained someone? Your focus is not solely on your job. Training is distracting) Breaking that down further one of the 3 active controllers was ground control and only two were focused on the sky; one primary and one assistant (guessing less experienced). So, basically, there was ONE controller in charge of all air traffic at one of the most congested airports in the country. ONE...let that sink in! Stating there were five controllers in the tower is disingenuous.

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Originally posted by Sigmund:

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Originally posted by 95flhr:

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Lobach previously worked as a White House social aide under President Joe Biden

This has no bearing on anything. hell, I spent 6 years stationed at the White House years ago, it’s an assignment like many others, and not a political job nor does it equate to a political affiliation, it’s just an assignment.

Did she maintain currency while in the White House? If not, how long did it take to get skills back?

I would ask this if the pilot were male or female.

My understanding is her White House duties were in addition to her FT Belvoir duties, social aides are pulled from local bases for events and those personnel are not at the White House on a daily basis.

From an Army Web site.
The White House is seeking active-duty Army officers, in grades first lieutenant through major to serve as a White House military social aide. Selection is limited to officers assigned to the National Capitol Region or who are on orders to the NCR. Army Reserve and National Guard officers in the National Capital Region may apply; however, potential applicants must have active-duty orders with two or more years remaining in the National Capital Region at the time of application.

The White House Social Aide program is a volunteer additional duty. Those interested must include an 0-6 level endorsement from their chain of command. Social aides are expected to work an average of five to six events a month during the duty day, evenings and occasional weekends.

https://www.army.mil/article/2...military_social_aide

This is a huge part of the problem, the Army has been turned into an airborne Uber for all these people:


https://x.com/robertmsterling/...850576044306466?s=46

That helio failed to maintain visual and separation.

It's ultimately the duty of the pilot in command to do so. I've been asked to keep and maintain visual separation many times. And have indicated I couldn't find the target. And ask for a vector to avoid target.

I've had 2 near misses from others failing to locate and maintain and continue on course.
One was when I was downwind at KRYY. A King Air.
Idiot continued to say he didn't have me and didn't abort his entry into downwind himself.
After he blew over the top of me in a hurry, the tower asked him to call them when he landed.
Then I had a talk. with the instructor with him after I landed.

Critical air safety system NOTAM goes down nationwide — as US reels from 2 plane crashes

https://nypost.com/2025/02/02/...ght-delays-expected/

Flights across the US could be delayed Sunday after the Federal Aviation Administration’s critical NOTAM warning system experienced an outage —mere days after two deadly plane crashes rocked the nation.

Notice to Air Missions — which relays important information about possible hazards to pilots and airports — went dark Saturday night, Secretary of Transportation Sean Duffy wrote on X.

“The primary NOTAM system is experiencing a temporary outage, but there is currently no impact to the National Airspace System because a backup system is in place,” he said, noting the agency activated its contingency systems to keep flight operations running.

Duffy added that the FAA was working to restore this system fully, but that “there may be some residual delays” going into Sunday morning.

According to data collected by FlightAware, there were nearly 500 delayed flights in the US, and a little over 60 cancellations early Sunday morning.

I think that this will boil down to "shit happens." It had nothing to do with "fast-tracking" an individual soldier. An O-3 at 28 is normal.

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Originally posted by Gustofer:
...An O-3 at 28 is normal.

Is 500 hours to fly in DC also normal?

FWIW, 500 military flight hours is the minimum for the Night Stalkers, though I have no idea if anyone is selected with 500 hours.

https://go160thsoar.com/

I also went to the 12th Avn Bn page to see their minimum requirements, but I was unable to find them. 500 hours seems low for the Night Stalkers or the DC mission, perhaps military aviators can add more.

https://jtfncr.mdw.army.mil/TAAB/

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Originally posted by PASig:
This is a huge part of the problem, the Army has been turned into an airborne Uber for all these people:

They were training for the continuity of the government should the shit hit the fan. That training is going to happen in that airspace night and day no matter what. I don’t have any issue moving real people around as part of that training.

How would you have them train for that mission?

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Originally posted by triggertreat:
From the comments-There were 5 people, but only 3 were actively controlling traffic. Two of the five were "supervisors with one being trained and one in a trainer role. (Anyone ever trained someone? Your focus is not solely on your job. Training is distracting) Breaking that down further one of the 3 active controllers was ground control and only two were focused on the sky; one primary and one assistant (guessing less experienced). So, basically, there was ONE controller in charge of all air traffic at one of the most congested airports in the country. ONE...let that sink in! Stating there were five controllers in the tower is disingenuous.

Are you saying that neither the supervisor nor the supervisor in training could have stepped into any of the other roles should the need arise? What happens when an ATC has to take a leak?

They had 6 and the supervisor let 1 go home an hour early. At 9:30pm, normal staffing would have meant there would have been only 1 person handling aircraft and helicopters or 1 supervisor and 3 ATCs. If there hadn’t been a supervisor trainee, there would 4 ATCs and 1 supervisor, 4+1=5. Normal staffing for the time the crash happened would be 5. They had 5 at the time of the crash.

Perhaps one of our current/former ATCs could shed some light on what an ATC supervisor does and how ATCs use the bathroom? Is it like astronauts? Are they hooked up hooked up to a machine that just sucks it away whenever the need arises? How about breaks for food? Do they just halt take offs and landings while they eat?

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Originally posted by trapper189:

They were training for the continuity of the government should the shit hit the fan...

Mid-Air Collision Shines Light On Doomsday Plans For Nation’s Capital

The Army UH-60 Black Hawk that collided with an airliner was assigned to a specialized unit with a continuity of government mission.

by Joseph Trevithick
Posted on Jan 30, 2025

The crew of a U.S. Army UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter involved in a mid-air collision over the Potomac River last night were training for what is known as a continuity of government mission. In the event of a major attack or other especially serious crisis, Army helicopters would be among the assets tasked with spiriting senior U.S. officials and lawmakers safely out of Washington, D.C. at a moment’s notice so that critical aspects of the country’s government continue to function...

Lastly, the 12th Aviation Battalion has its continuity of government mission, which is not a secret, but is also not well known or often publicized. There are continuity of government plans across the whole of the U.S. government to help ensure that key authorities can continue to perform their duties even in the worst of scenarios, as you can read more about here.

“12th Aviation [Battalion] obviously has a special mission set in the National Capital Region,” Jonathan Koziol, a subject matter expert and retired Army aviator now working for the Aviation Directorate Chief of Staff within the Department of the Army’s top headquarters at the Pentagon, told TWZ and other reporters during a press call today.

“Part of it is VIP flights for our senior leaders throughout the service to get them to and from certain areas,” Koziol continued. “But partly, some of their mission is to support the Department of Defense if something really bad happens in this area and we need to move our senior leaders.”

Complete article:

https://www.twz.com/air/mid-ai...-for-nations-capital

If anyone is really really into COG read this:

https://www.amazon.com/Raven-R...76735425/ref=sr_1_2c

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Originally posted by Sigmund:

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Originally posted by Gustofer:
...An O-3 at 28 is normal.

Is 500 hours to fly in DC also normal?

FWIW, 500 military flight hours is the minimum for the Night Stalkers, though I have no idea if anyone is selected with 500 hours.

The mission of this unit is doing is bus driver work. Boring, routine, on time pick-up & drop-off. If there's a unit to build up flight hours, this would be one where active flying is constant.

And Night Stalkers are pretty much the best of the best. If their minimum is 500 hours, I'd say that's pretty good for your average Joe.

And consider this, 500 hours in a helicopter is (roughly) 500 take offs, 500 hovers, 500 landings, 500 just about everything. That's a goodly amount of experience regardless of the environment.

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Originally posted by trapper189:

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Originally posted by triggertreat:
From the comments-There were 5 people, but only 3 were actively controlling traffic. Two of the five were "supervisors with one being trained and one in a trainer role. (Anyone ever trained someone? Your focus is not solely on your job. Training is distracting) Breaking that down further one of the 3 active controllers was ground control and only two were focused on the sky; one primary and one assistant (guessing less experienced). So, basically, there was ONE controller in charge of all air traffic at one of the most congested airports in the country. ONE...let that sink in! Stating there were five controllers in the tower is disingenuous.

Are you saying that neither the supervisor nor the supervisor in training could have stepped into any of the other roles should the need arise? What happens when an ATC has to take a leak?

They had 6 and the supervisor let 1 go home an hour early. At 9:30pm, normal staffing would have meant there would have been only 1 person handling aircraft and helicopters or 1 supervisor and 3 ATCs. If there hadn’t been a supervisor trainee, there would 4 ATCs and 1 supervisor, 4+1=5. Normal staffing for the time the crash happened would be 5. They had 5 at the time of the crash.

The help crew said they had the plane in sight, but they were wrong.
How is a controller to know that and “step in”?

This is just my opinion. It is only opinion so feel free to ignore it if you don't like it.

I don't have any experience in aviation. But I have lived in the Washington D.C. area most of my life. So I am familiar with many of the landmarks from the perspective of the ground.

The Woodrow Wilson Bridge, the southern crossing point over the Potomac River for Capital Beltway (I-495) is five miles down river from Reagan National. Right next to the bridge on the east bank of the river and just south (downriver) is the MGM Resort & Casino Hotel, the Gaylord Hotel and other attractions.

I believe that from the vantage point of the crew of the Helo, the CRJ7 was obscured by the lights from National Harbor. The crew of the Helo either misidentified the CRJ7 as another aircraft that was over the Woodrow Wilson Bridge at that time, or they momentarily lost visual tracking of the CRJ7 due to the hotel lights.

When Helo crew acquired or re-acquired the CRJ7, it was to their left. The Helo crew probably thought that the CRJ7 was aborting their landing so the Helo turned to the right over the river not realizing that the CRJ7 was banking left on final to Runway 33.

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Originally posted by Poacher:
The help crew said they had the plane in sight, but they were wrong.
How is a controller to know that and “step in”?

They wouldn’t. Would that have changed had there been one ATC handling fixed wing aircraft and another handling rotary aircraft? I have no idea what information the ATC had, but if he had information available that indicated an impending crash and missed that, then I could see making the case that two ATCs would be better.

The premise is the ATC was overwhelmed doing both jobs an hour earlier than ATC normally would have been doing both jobs. I’m guessing that both the supervisor and supervisor trainee are well versed in all roles and either could have stepped in if any of the 3 ATCs needed.

If everybody followed the rules, the system would have worked. Do ATCs train for what to do when the rules aren’t followed? I’m sure they do to some extent. Even that requires the people they are talking to to follow their directions.

This was like two cars driving down the road heading towards each other. It’s no problem if they both stay in their lane even at 110mph closing speed. Unfortunately for my brother who was driving a cement truck at the time, the pickup truck in the other lane didn’t stay there and the pickup driver died. Nothing my brother could do and he was fine physically, but that was the end of him as a truck driver.

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Originally posted by trapper189:

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Originally posted by Poacher:
The help crew said they had the plane in sight, but they were wrong.
How is a controller to know that and “step in”?

They wouldn’t. Would that have changed had there been one ATC handling fixed wing aircraft and another handling rotary aircraft? I have no idea what information the ATC had, but if he had information available that indicated an impending crash and missed that, then I could see making the case that two ATCs would be better.

The premise is the ATC was overwhelmed doing both jobs an hour earlier than ATC normally would have been doing both jobs. I’m guessing that both the supervisor and supervisor trainee are well versed in all roles and either could have stepped in if any of the 3 ATCs needed.

If everybody followed the rules, the system would have worked. Do ATCs train for what to do when the rules aren’t followed? I’m sure they do to some extent. Even that requires the people they are talking to to follow their directions.

This was like two cars driving down the road heading towards each other. It’s no problem if they both stay in there lane. Unfortunately for my brother who was driving a cement truck at the time, the pickup truck in the other lane didn’t stay there and the pickup driver died. Nothing my brother could do and he was fine physically, but that was the end of him as a truck driver.

If you have seen the radar replay (FALCON), you will see that prior to impact, the 'CONFLICT ALERT' alarm activates (flashing 'CA' with each aircraft's data tag and an audible alarm). There was warning to the impending impact. Again, having worked in the DC metro, there is a lot going on. The controller was overloaded (and the FAA will have to answer for that), but, the 'Prime Directive' of ATC is to Ensure Separation. If the controller was getting too busy, he should have denied the helo entry into the airspace. Yes, this is clearly monday morning quarterbacking, but it is fact. PAT was a VFR helo, low on the priority list of requiring ATC services. The problem is that controllers, by their very nature, try to provide as much service as they can; sometimes exceeding their ability to do so safely. 99.9% of the time, nothing happens. Unfortunately, this was not one of those times.

The helo pilot fucked up, and paid the ultimate price. However, the controller does have a part in this. It pains me to say it, but, IMHO, it is true.

The "silver lining' in this might be a cold, hard look at operations/capacity at DCA. Staffing levels in the FAA, and everything else under the sun.

It has been long said that the FAA is, to paraphrase, a 'coffin agency.' Nothing drastic changes until someone dies.

This seems odd and Haven't seen it mentioned here.

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Female Pilot Rebecca Lobach’s Entire Social Media Scrubbed before Army Released Her Name – So What Are They Hiding?

https://www.thegatewaypundit.c...d-her-entire-social/

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Originally posted by mo4040:
If you have seen the radar replay (FALCON), you will see that prior to impact, the 'CONFLICT ALERT' alarm activates (flashing 'CA' with each aircraft's data tag and an audible alarm). There was warning to the impending impact. Again, having worked in the DC metro, there is a lot going on. The controller was overloaded (and the FAA will have to answer for that), but, the 'Prime Directive' of ATC is to Ensure Separation. If the controller was getting too busy, he should have denied the helo entry into the airspace. Yes, this is clearly monday morning quarterbacking, but it is fact. PAT was a VFR helo, low on the priority list of requiring ATC services. The problem is that controllers, by their very nature, try to provide as much service as they can; sometimes exceeding their ability to do so safely. 99.9% of the time, nothing happens. Unfortunately, this was not one of those times.

The helo pilot fucked up, and paid the ultimate price. However, the controller does have a part in this. It pains me to say it, but, IMHO, it is true.

The "silver lining' in this might be a cold, hard look at operations/capacity at DCA. Staffing levels in the FAA, and everything else under the sun.

It has been long said that the FAA is, to paraphrase, a 'coffin agency.' Nothing drastic changes until someone dies.

Conflict Alert doesn’t mean a collision is imminent, it just means the targets are within a prescribed parameter (I’m not ATC so can’t for sure say what that is). You can hear alerts during radio transmissions all the time in busy airspace. Once the helicopter reported the RJ in sight and was given visual separation by the tower controller they assumed responsibility for collision avoidance.

I do agree the controller was overly busy at the time, the one thing that irks me about the incident is that the RJ crew was never given traffic information about the helo. If they were paying close attention they could hear the controller talking to the helo, but the helo was on a different frequency so they would’ve only heard one side of the conversation. Now as it turns out they did get a TCAS traffic alert shortly before the collision, but it was only an advisory and so wouldn’t have warranted evasive action. Just a horrible deal all around.

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Originally posted by Sigmund:

...Is 500 hours to fly in DC also normal?...

I would guess that <500 hrs isn't that abnormal. It may not be the majority, but I bet it isn't uncommon. They probably get the occassional WO1, as well.

As far as I know, 160th has no role in this mishap. Their mission and 12th AVN's is completely different (as, I'm sure you know). Not sure of the relevance of the comparison.

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So What Are They Hiding?

I saw her family refer to her being a "partner", so if I had to guess she's probably a lesbian.