SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Legal advice, government taking of property, more info on page two
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| Member |
I, along with several people in my neigborhood, just received a letter that was, by design, very short on facts. This letter talks about vertical obstructions that may pose a threat to the airport to our east. I don't know why they didn't say trees. They plan on having an informational meeting to talk about options for the safety and continued operation of the airport. Before this meeting I would like to know, from other sources, what my rights are in this case. Can they take these trees without payment? Many of these are between 100 and 200 foot tall Red and White Pines. Thanks in advance. JimThis message has been edited. Last edited by: Pal, | ||
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The Unmanned Writer |
Welcome to the world of FAA. Short answer is they can ether force you to remove them or remove them for you (and possibly pass along the costs). Long answer - appeal and ask them to provide the reference (a FAR?). Read up on it and determine if they are correct in their assessment. There is a certain, conical, distance (I think that's the correct terminology) which must be free from obstructions to main and cross-wind runways and the FAA owns that airspace which the obstructions may be obstructing. Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. "If dogs don't go to Heaven, I want to go where they go" Will Rogers The definition of the words we used, carry a meaning of their own... | |||
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| Member |
AOPA may have good resources to help you with this. The EAA may as well. | |||
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| Doing my best to shape America's youth  |
Just happened in my town. Landowners not happy, but they did not have to pay removal costs. They tried to block it but were not successful. Opened up the back of an entire neighborhood to flight noise. Took down a lot of trees in a certified wildlife habitat too. Basic attitude around here was "airport was here before you were born..." I hope it works out better for you than them. Clarior Hinc Honos BSA Dad, Cheer Dad | |||
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| Smarter than the average bear |
Rusty, non-practicing attorney here, but in general the government cannot take your property without paying. I don't know about any special rules for FAA, but when they take property for roads, etc., they have to pay fair market value. The litigation is generally about what that value is-they tend to want to underpay. | |||
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blame canada |
Timber has a value. Look to your applicable city/county codes, the condemnation of your trees may be covered in existing code. It certainly seems reasonable that a government entity could condemn trees that pose a threat to public safety (which it sounds like the airport feels that they do). Are they talking about removing the trees completely, or just trimming some height off of them? If they feel that they are justified in removing the whole tree....then you should be compensated for the trees and any losses associated or affects on value and livability of your property by their loss. You may have to find an arborist or timber appraiser to value the trees they intend on removing/trimming. I really see no reason to fight removal of a threat to aircraft safety, but you certainly should be compensated for any damages the removal causes you. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "The trouble with our Liberal friends...is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." Ronald Reagan, 1964 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Arguing with some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. It doesn't matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon will just take a shit on the board, strut around knocking over all the pieces and act like it won.. and in some cases it will insult you at the same time." DevlDogs55, 2014  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ www.rikrlandvs.com | |||
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| Member |
Get someone to give you an estimate on home much the timber is worth. Get pictures. | |||
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| Member |
The state took 4 and 1/2 trees down in my front yard. I have owned this property for 46 years. Somebody puts a large grain elevator in down the road a piece and they filed a complaint saying their truckers going in and out of there cannot see far enough down the road because of the trees in my yard. They were 30-45 ft tall. They have a mound of dirt and stone on the other side of their driveway that is still there, but that keeps them from seeing down the other way. So, the short answer now, is YES they can take your trees down. At least they did not make me pay to have them cut or hauled away.(they were Austrian white pine) NRA Life Endowment member Tri-State Gun collectors Life Member | |||
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| Member |
Yes, Timber has a value. The value is subject to several influences, just as a home or vehichle. If you can determine the trees have a historical or some other tangential value, then do it. As an example - Years ago, the county wanted part of my parents land for an easement to a new cell tower. We fought it, but ultimately lost. They agreed to pay $400 per tree that had to be removed. There were only 5 trees. We argued that the trees had historical significance, as they were the last remaining trees from a line of trees planted along an old road that no longer existed. In the end, we were paid $17,000 per tree | |||
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| Ammoholic |
As a pilot, I am not a fan of obstructions growing into the arrival and departure corridors, whether they are trees or high rises. Doesn't seem fair to take someone's property without warning and compensation though. I guess in a perfect world, there would be easements on all properties in arrival and departure corridors specifying any height limits for buildings or trees. At the time the airport was built, someone (the airport authority, the FAA, or ?) could have paid the then owners of the properties for those easements and any later purchasers would know what they were getting into. Properties in the vicinity of our local airport have avigation easements. Basically, any potential buyer is made aware up front that there is and will be noise from the County Airport and buyers will have to deal with it. I don't know if they have anything similar for arrival and departure corridors though... AOPA and EAA are resources on this kind of stuff, but I don't know how helpful they would be to your side of the argument. What the heck, any information you can get ought to be beneficial, even if their sympathies aren't on your side. Good luck! I hope that something can be worked out that works for you, your neighbors, and the airport. | |||
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Member |
Unless you sit on top of a hill in the approach or near the end of the runway, it shouldn't be an issue. Force them to mark EVERY single tree that needs to be trimmed or removed. Do not accept a blanket area. Also ask for a detailed aerial map showing all the imaginary surfaces. With today's GIS technology this is stupid simple to do and they can tell you EXACTLY what is penetrating the surface and by how much. If you have an iPhone download the APP Airfield Mgmt, after its installed click on the middle button "Surfaces-USAF". This will educate you about the imaginary airfield surfaces. However, unless they have an easement on your property, they CANNOT touch it, period. I have dealt with this on a military installation and there is a large cluster of trees we need to trip and/or remove. However, we have no easement and the owners hates us because years ago they allowed entry and apparently left the place a mess. Nothing we can do without getting into some big money and it would be a public relations nightmare. With all this said, some trees can cause birds to roost such as pines and honeysuckle. If you live in a cold weather environment this can be more of a hazard to aircraft than a tree that just needs trimmed. Inform yourself, ask lots of questions and ask for specific references from the FAA, etc. Lastly, DOCUMENT everything, consider establishing a community group...it carries more weight than an individual person. ---------- “Nobody can ever take your integrity away from you. Only you can give up your integrity.” H. Norman Schwarzkopf | |||
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Info Guru |
A little Googling for a few related articles: https://www.google.com/search?...ceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 The first hit is from 1990 - looks like an airport board approached private property owners and asked them to cut at the property owner's expense and were told NO. Then the board offered to pay for the cutting - residents still said NO, so it was moving into a legal battle. A few of the other articles were very similar - airport board asked, people said no, offer to pay or come to settlement and if that doesn't work, moves to a legal battle. <I'm not an attorney, never dealt with this issue in real life and some of the articles were from years ago and different parts of the country where different rules/laws may apply, but the stories all seemed to follow a very similar track> “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” - John Adams | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine  |
Statutes and regulations? But, the 5th Amendment prevents the government from taking your property without compensation. As I usually suggest when people ask for legal advice - ASK A DAMN LAWYER. Don't take advice from your invisible internet friends who don't even play lawyers on TV. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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אַרְיֵה |
What type airport? This might make a difference in the legality of the situation. If the airport is owned / operated by a governmental entity -- city, county, state, or federal, it might be very different from a privately owned airport like the one I'm based at. I do not believe (I could be wrong) that our airport has any ability to demand that obstructions on the approach be removed or relocated. We have a clear approach when landing to the north, but we have power lines very close to the runway when landing to the south. As a privately owned airport, I don't think that we have any clout; if we did, those power lines would have been re-routed underground long ago. הרחפת שלי מלאה בצלופחים | |||
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| Member |
You are getting your notice via the letter, so noice is not an issue. You will also likley get compensation for the taking, whether by agreement, or by lawsuit where a jury decides the value of what was taken. The amount depends on what is taken, of course. It might be trees, an antenna, a chimney, and on occasion entire houses. (Doesn't sound like this is case the case though). FAA has its own regs regarding this issue, as noted above. Depending on the amount of property taken, it is well worth it to hire an attorney who has defended such lawsuits. Down south of you in Ohio, I often see the same firms on other side of eminent domain cases. THey know the valuation experts, etc. Source: I have filed and litigated such lawsuits on behalf of local governmenta.  | |||
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| Ammoholic |
As usual, jhe888 for the win. Question for you though, What type of lawyer would one be best off with here (what specialty or specialties, if any)? | |||
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| Oh stewardess, I speak jive.  |
I would be livid, to say the least. That's (philosophically) wrong on so many levels. | |||
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| Member |
Call your local county bar association to find out if any attorneys list defense of eminent domain actions. If that fails, google that term with your county. | |||
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| The Unmanned Writer |
Lemme find that for you (not being sarcastic). May not be a statute as the FAA is like the EPA. IN the FAA's case, the regs fall under the FARs. Kind of like people who shot down the mini UAVs (aka: drones) just because the UAV is over their property. Per the FAA, they regulate everything not touching the ground and shooting down a UAV is, technically, a federal offense. This fall into the same realm Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. "If dogs don't go to Heaven, I want to go where they go" Will Rogers The definition of the words we used, carry a meaning of their own... | |||
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| The Unmanned Writer |
Here you go: https://www.faa.gov/airports/e...g/airspace_analysis/
In particular you are looking for AOSC DD 02b which reads (in parts):
however (section 1) Introduction)
What will happen is: 1. FAA send letter of requirement/intent to lower height of trees. 2. Land owner will balk. 3. FAA send letter of intent to local goobermint officials operating said airfield indicating they will de-certify the airfield if obstructions are not removed. Because airfield are revenue generators, local officials will have the trees lowered by hook or crook. Here's some more:
There's also a glide slope graphic depicting the heights - this is what the OP should consider. Not a lawyer by any means though airport operations and certifications is my background and edumacation Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. "If dogs don't go to Heaven, I want to go where they go" Will Rogers The definition of the words we used, carry a meaning of their own... | |||
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SIGforum.com Main Page The Lounge Legal advice, government taking of property, more info on page two
Main Page The Lounge Legal advice, government taking of property, more info on page two© SIGforum 2024